Do you think girls should be allowed to play on boy's sports teams?

[Chris James]

http://www.today.com/news/because-im-girl-fourth-grader-denied-right-play-ball-boys-2D79522339

The thing that got me angry about this whole thing is that they state that the AAU rules did not allow this girl in competition with the boys. WTF is the AAU doing involved with fourth grade sports in the first place?

I admit bias against those Sports Nazis because when I was in competitive swimming they disqualified one of my team's wins in an event because one of the boys who actually won the race was 13 in a 14 & 15 year old age bracket. The boy won the race, stupidest ruling I ever heard of, but that is the American Athletic Union for you. How amateur can you get?

And before you think that women are the weaker sex I offer this example: In high school I played lacrosse, boys only. The girls didn't like that they were relegated to playing field hockey and so they challenged the boys to a game. Don't think of field hockey as a benign sport, it involves as much running and body contact as lacrosse. Needless to say the girls beat the crap out of us...I think I still have the scars. :)

[Cole Parker]

I've attended women's collegiate basketball games every year for over thirty years. Anyone who thinks it's a game played gently by willowy sylphs is nuts. I watch men's basketball, too, but on TV. The women's game is actually more physical. And they play hard, often harder than the men.

They can't compete with the men physically because they can't jump as high or run as fast, as a general rule, but against each other, they're amazing and thrilling to watch.

If women can compete with men, they should certainly have the opportunity. I don't think antiquated and outdated opinions of what women are should hold them back. I think they should be allowed to try out for any sport they're interested in, and if they're good enough to make a men's team, let they play.

One argument against this is the one that says, if you're opening the door to having women on the men's teams, you must then let men try out for women's teams. They see this as a reason to prevent women being on men's teams. I say poppycock. How many men would actually do that? Sure, there might be a few, but today, there are thousands of women competing in college sports. The few men who'd face the ridicule that would follow them for doing this would have very little overall effect. It's a spurious argument.

C

[JamesSavik]

No.

Sexual segregation isn't PC but it works.

Academically boys and girls do best in same-sex classes.

Educators in the US have proven it dozens of times in studies and pilot projects but it drives feminists bat shit insane.

It's why that particular format in English schools has been so successful for centuries.

Girls wanting to play on boys sports teams are just attention seekers.

Let a linebacker pop them in the mouth and we'll see how dedicated they are.

[The Pecman]

I think equality is equality. If a girl can qualify for a boys' team, then I don't have a problem with it. And most schools still have separate locker rooms and showers for different sexes, so I think that's kosher.

I think there are some sports where it could be an issue, like wrestling. But baseball and basketball... no problem. I would be nervous about the potential liability if a 120-lb. girl were tackled by a 200-lb. linebacker on the football team.

On the other hand: the Olympics still won't let men and women compete against each other in their sporting events, so I can see the logistical argument against it. And again, trying to qualify is the killer: men's times in racing events are almost always significantly faster than women (running, swimming, etc.).

[Cole Parker]

Exactly. Women simply wouldn't qualify in a fair competition in tryouts in most sports, so the question becomes moot. But it should be allowed, so they have the opportunity. I don't think you'll see too many girls, or boys, who weight 120 against 200 pound linebackers. But if a girl weighed 180 and wanted to try it, I say, let her. It isn't to grab attention. It's because women want to test their capabilities, especially where they haven't had the chance before.

But not that many would go out for boys' sports, and the ones that did would probaby fare better than men would think possible.

And I've heard of girls on a boys' wrestling team. They often win. The boys don't know quite how to wrestle them.

C

[colinian]

And I've heard of girls on a boys' wrestling team. They often win. The boys don't know quite how to wrestle them.

C

Cole, the boys should soon realize that the girls have a couple of places that are easy to grab. Of course, the girls should soon realize that the boys have a place that's easy to grab too.

One of the other high schools in the Diablo Foothill Athletic League had a girl for their kicker: kick offs, punts, point-afters, and field goals. She wore the same kind of pads that guys who were the kickers on other teams wore. She was very impressive! I think the school was Dublin High, but I'm not sure now.

Colin

[Chris James]

Let's remember that copping a feel or popping someone in the mouth is a foul in any sport, by men and women. if all most sports offered was violence then every sport would be hockey.

[Merkin]

Skill is not the issue here. Women have demonstrated over and over that they can achieve the skill sets necessary to be competitive in sport. The problem hinges on basic anatomical differences, including height, weight, physical construction (how differently the shoulders and the hips articulate in men and women, for example). Safety becomes a complex concern for games officials, who already have enough to watch out for.

[Cole Parker]

But if we're saying girls cannot participate because of safety issues, that opens a whole new can of worms. Shouldn't we say the same thing about high school football? It isn't safe for 110 pound boys to compete against those who are 100 pounds heavier, yet there are no rules against it. It isn't safe for anyone to do gymnastics on a balance beam, or uneven bars, yet we allow young girls to do this.

My original argument was we should be fair when it comes to opportunity. I don't think it's right to afford boys the right to play a sport that girls don't have. If there's no girls' football team, or even if there is but a girl wants a higher level of competition she can't get playing against other girls, she should at least be allowed to try out and see if her body and skills are up to the task. The risks involved should be the province of her and her parents to weigh and come to terms with. She shouldn't be denied simply and solely because she's a girl.

Very few girls would take advantage of this. The few who would, like Colin's placekicker, or a 250 pound girl who wanted to try playing on the football team's offensive line, or the junior high wrestler who's body is more like a boy's than a girl's and has been a tomboy all her life and who's best friend is a boy on the team, should have the same opportunities to succeed or fail that their male counterparts do.

To say they have an unfair advantage because men will back off when completing with them is nonsense. It flies in the face of how athletics, and athletes, really are. When competing hard, it's the goal of the game that becomes important, not the sex of the opponent. And even if males did back off through some sort of misplaced chivalry, they'd still be the ones who'd have an unfair advantage themselves because nature made them stronger and faster. What about that unfair advantage?

C

[Graeme]

On the other hand: the Olympics still won't let men and women compete against each other in their sporting events, so I can see the logistical argument against it. And again, trying to qualify is the killer: men's times in racing events are almost always significantly faster than women (running, swimming, etc.).

Actually, there's one Olympic sport where men and women compete against each other: Equestrian. There is no gender segregation in Equestrian events.

Most of the counter-examples involving women playing a men's team are to do with physical contact and violence. I would agree that it would be rare for a woman to be able to compete in those sports, but if they're able to qualify to do so, why not? We've had the same thing here in Australia with some very talented girls wanting to play Australian Rules Football with the boys. If they've got the skills, what's the problem?

Arguing about men competing in the woman's competition is not the same thing. It is generally recognised that women are generally physically less strong than men, so for physical sports men playing in a women's competition is giving the men an unfair advantage.

One solution that I've seen applied is to have mixed competitions. For example, netball in Australia has mixed competitions where each team is allowed a number of male players. As I mentioned above, equestrian sports haven't had segregated competitions for a long time -- it's men and women, boys and girls, competing against each other on a level playing field.

I can accept that there's a lot of sports where a woman would be at a competitive disadvantage against a man, but if she's able to compete, then why not? A parallel discussion involves whether disabled athletes should be allowed to compete against able-bodied athletes -- a discussion that eventually saw a disabled athlete racing in the Olympics (an athlete currently on trial for murder, but that's a completely different story....)

[Cole Parker]

Ping pong. I believe women compete against men in some tournaments.

C

[The Pecman]

Actually, there's one Olympic sport where men and women compete against each other: Equestrian. There is no gender segregation in Equestrian events.

Good exception! That's an excellent observation, Graeme.

And I would also add that American race car driving has had women drivers on the track (some of whom are very good), if you consider that kind of a sport. I'm not sure why they won't let a woman on a college baseball or pro baseball team, because -- theoretically -- it's a non-contact sport. And I bet there are women who could qualify.

I've always been 100% for the Equal Rights Amendment, and I've been sad that after all these years, it's still never been passed, mainly because of these complex legal issues and fear about lawsuits. But I think everybody should be given a fair shake, within reason, and while I might balk at a 120-pound girl wrestling a 200-pound boy, I'd have to think about whether a 120-pound girl wrestling a 120-pound boy was inherently wrong. Same thing with boxing.

Very complicated issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment

[ChrisR]

Made more complicated in the past few years with the whole trans-gender issue. If a physical male who self-identifies as female can use the womens' bathrooms, how long will it be before courts rule that the same individual can join the girls' volleyball team? Perhaps even the boys' basketball team at the same time?

[Cole Parker]

If girls can make the boys basketball team, they should be allowed to be on it. Same with soccer and other sports. The thing is, boys and girls have different musculatures. I love watching womens college basketball; I've been following it for years. But, if you watch a very good womens team play, and then watch the men play right afterward, it can be a very mediocre men's team and they'll still play a game that barely resembles the previous game. They can jump much higher, run much faster, pass the ball much harder. There's just no comparison.

Maybe the difference is less in high school. There may well be a few girls that can compete on an equal level with boys at those ages. If they can, and there are no girls teams at the school, they should be allowed.

As for wrestling, 120 pound wrestlers don't wrestle 200 pound wrestlers. I know that some 120 pound girls wrestlers can beat some 120 pound boy wrestlers. There have been and are many cases where this now happens in the US. There's been controversy, too, because some boys refuse to wrestle a female opponent. My view of that is he doesn't want to live with the shame of losing to a girl. But if a school has no girls' team, they are by law permitted on the boys' team.

More power to them.

C

[Merkin]

Ability rules. How about Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner? Started out winning a football scholarship to college, then went on to win Olympic gold in decathlon sports. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those 1972 Olympics were thick with eastern bloc athletes of questionable gender. Gender should be irrelevant to ability. Even in some high schools girls have played football with the boys, and several have excelled as kickers. In my small town the intramural soccer teams are mixed, from pee wee on up.

[Cole Parker]

Not surprisingly, when girls first started wrestling against boys, the biggest complainer was the Catholic Church. Why is it that religious organizations are the strongest opponents of women's rights? Both Catholicism and Islam treat women as second class citizens.

C

[Joe]

No.

I agree with James, no need to repeat his comments.

[ChrisR]

In fact, Cole, I'm not familiar with coed wrestling programs at the high school level. And I find that fact neither surprising nor inappropriate. I don't think girls are considered second class but I suspect many schools would prefer to leave coed wrestling matches to off-campus venues outside of school hours.

When you state that Catholics were the first complainers, the implication is that that has changed. Do you know which districts now host coed teams with boy/girl wrestling organizations? In college I engaged in fencing (club level, not NCAA) and we would occasionally practice against the women but all meets were divided by gender.

[Lugnutz]

If girls can play in the guys sports, why can't guys play in girls sports?

[Cole Parker]

This was in the news and widely discussed what, ten years ago? I think it's become common now, so common it doesn't get much discussion at all. Of course, since then, many schools have solved the 'problem' by forming girls wrestling teams. If a school has that, then they aren't required to permit the girls to join the boys' team.

If you Google girls high school wrestling, there'd probably be lots of info there.

C

[colinian]

One of the high schools in my area had a girl as their kicker — kickoffs, field goals, and PATs (point after touchdown). She did not use the same locker room and showers as the boys. I understand there was a lot of grumbling about how that wasn't fair by the rest of the team.

I used this as an idea for a character, a girl kicker on a boy's football team, in my story A Time When It All Went Wrong.

Colin