TheZot

This is very true, and for all the scorn heaped on the stuff on Nifty, a lot of it really is people taking their first big public attempt at writing fiction. It's the sort of writing that'd normally be trotted out in a writing class or workshop, but the people doing it aren't in a position to do that. Probably doesn't even occur to them that they could, or the anonymity of the Internet gives 'em the freedom they need to take that first step and actually try to write. I dunno for sure how many of the people writing dodgy stuff have to be writing porn or erotica for motivational reasons. Many of them do -- it's really clear that there's a good-sized chunk of text on Nifty that's there mostly to let the author exorcise their personal demons, and if the subject were different they'd not be writing at all. I suppose anything that gets people writing is good, though I'm not 100% sure that too much of it ought to be seen in public...

It may be lazy, but for folks who've grown up (more or less) with Nifty as one of their primary sources of reading it's also the way they've been taught writing's done. You have an idea, you start, you dive through the interminable middle with a lot of unjustified sex and soap opera dynamics, then let the story peter out before mostly abandoning it. Not that I'm defending the practice. I'm one of those "gotta know the end before you post the beginning" writers, and if I don't know the ending then the story's not out of first draft yet. But people learn by example, and there's a huge wad of very bad examples on the 'net, and I'm afraid that schools aren't really in a position to teach good fiction writing. (Though I would've had a blast if my High School had offered a one-semester "writing net pr0n" class. That would've been fun... :)

I sort of do outlines, though it's more I write a summary of the story, then start actually writing the thing, jumping forwards and back as I get blocked or bored with particular parts. Seems to work out for me, though it's certainly not for everyone, and it does make doing the standard Internet serial a little tougher as it means writing six or eight parts before something's ready to get released. Plopping thuds, and indeed all the first few paragraphs, are going to get ripped out and replaced. They pretty much just placeholders to remind me what I was thinking (and I wasn't being scatological, though I expect that's where far too many people would go) while I dashed off as much of the story plot pieces as I could before they slipped out of my brain. I do write multiple drafts, a long habit I let go of more than I ought to have. Even more low-tech I tend to do it on paper. (Gasp! :)) I find the change of mode makes it easier to think differently. When I've got Word going I'm writing, while when I've got the printout and red pen I'm editing. The extra distance it puts between me and the work helps too. (And yes, I didn't do nearly enough of this for Yankee. Did it a lot for Firegrass, and I think the piece was much better for it)

Well, I have been thinking about it and working a few things out. It's an adventure story, and at the moment my working hypothesis for adventure story plots is "grab the readers by the throat and drag along until the end, pausing occasionally just long enough for them to catch their breath." At the moment I'm planning on sticking with the 'start in the middle' opening, less the plopping thuds, as it works kinda nicely for me. There's a second character already handy to pull in both for backup and as someone to toss dialog at to bring in some of the backstory, so I think that'll work out pretty well. I'd try for the truly inventive opening but, sad though it is, I'm not even attempting inventive. Not that I'm intentionally copying anyone, but I've no illusions this'll be anything other than a fun romp with some interesting characters, so... I'm romping. :) That and using it as practice of sorts, a piece to work on some of the weaknesses in my writing. (The last one I did was too dense on-page, and all the characters sounded like me (which worries me, as one of them was a raving lunatic), so this is going to be in part an exercise in character differentiation and editing)

This is definitely a short story in the traditional sense -- it'll probably be 12k, maybe 14k words, a follow-on to Firegrass. Defintiely not multi-chapter or anything. At this point there's about a thousand words banged out, and I fully expect all of 'em, including the horrible 'plopping thuds', to get tossed before release. Which is a pity, as the dialog's fun. Just a little out of character, alas. Damn pesky characters, always playing loose with their speech patterns... Anyway, sounds like skipping straight to the Imminent Peril's the way to go here. That's cool, I can do that. There's more than enough opportunity for the leads to snipe at each other and fill in any backstory that might be needed. Thanks, guys.

Right, so I'm in the beginning-ish bits of writing a short story, and I'm toying with how exactly to start the thing. (This isn't getting in the way of writing the middle and ending bits, since I'm pretty clear on the plot from start to end) The plot is basically one of those 'monster in the basement' things. You know, character goes into basement, finds monster, runs away, comes back with friends and heavy artillery, mayhem and witty dialog occur, story ends. On the one hand, I have this urge to start from where the lead starts into the basement. Set the scene, get the reader into the feel of the place, emphasize the creepy elements, then have the monster leap out and go from there. I've been working on my description lately, and I can really get into the techincal bits and nuances, painting a really good picture of the place and play up the unsettling parts. On the other hand, I'm tempted to skip the heck out of all that and start with something like: And throw any references to what he was actually doing in the basement when the creature started after him in as flashbacks, offhand back-references, or just ignore 'em entirely. Given that it's more an adventure story than a horror story (hence the artillery and large amount of Stuff That Goes Bang later on) I'm tempted for the second option and skip all the scene-setting, but I'm not sure. Anyone care to weigh in? I realize there's not exactly a lot of information here, so there might not be a way to really judge, but I'm fine with unsupported opinions too. :)

Hey, screw that. My first novel was 120,000 words, and I cranked out the first draft in a month (while working a horrendous full-time job)! My second was 170,000 words, but that DID take six months. True enough. I don't find the size daunting (nor double entendres) it's more a matter of time. Job and family suck down an awful lot of it, not leaving much for writing. That's been my biggest issue. Well, that and figuring out the whole plot and enough background material to make it all believable, but that part I can let the back of my brain chew on pretty much any time. Yeah, the last two chapters are getting ripped out and redone, which'll probably mean they'll be four or five chapters, and Rob'll be really miserable by the time it's all done. Getting things done to the end has always been a problem for me, one of the reasons I was happy to actually have Yankee finished. Now I'll be happy when Yankee's finished right. :)

I would've posted this under the original announcement thread someone started, but it looks like that went missing in the board DB mess last year. Anyway, ignoring the shameless self-promotion for a second, I've finally finished Yankee. It's on nifty at http://www.nifty.org/nifty/gay/highschool/yankee/ in its component chapters, or if you want to read it one massive wad it's on GA's efiction site at http://www.gayauthors.org/eficiton/viewsto...d=5&chapter=all 16 chapters, six months, and almost 80K words. It's nice to be done. :) (Time to cry Havok and let loose the dogs of literary criticism, I expect...)

I'm not entirely sure an editor in a non-paid setting needs to be more lenient, though certainly some tact is in order. Liberties that you might be able to get away with in a paid setting may well just not fly in a volunteer one, regardless of whether they're the best way to get a point across. I'm not sure there's a tactful way to say "Have you considered not writing another word again ever? If not, could you?" to someone. As important as it is for the editor to realize the author's a volunteer, it's important for the author to realize that the editor is a volunteer as well in these circumstances. I don't think it's inappropriate for both editor and author to cut the other some slack, and I think that a certain minimum amount of professionalism is in order regardless of whether there's money involved. There's a lot more to being a professional (IMHO, at least) than just getting paid. (and if there isn't I shall happily live with my delusions, thanks :) ) It's definitely true that an editor has fewer ways to coerce changes in a piece this way, which can make it more difficult (or potentially impossible) to get some changes made. One of the downsides to a self-service publishing vehicle like the Internet -- the author can always choose to ignore the advice of his or her editor. That advice is ignored at the author's peril (though, granted, not much peril...) even if the advice is poor. Anyway, I think there's a limit to how much an editor should coddle an author's feelings, and a limit to how much editors and author should expect from each other unless other arrangements have been made. It's all volunteer -- unless you've stood up and say you're comfortable with what's essentially an intimate relationship, both sides should pony up some common courtesy and go from there. -Dan

I'll agree with Graeme and speak a bit from personal experience -- having multiple opinions on a piece or multiple people working on it (or both) can help out a lot. You'll find that one person picks up on something that another misses, and assuming someone can integrate everything together you'll end up with better and stronger work, which is a good thing.

Count me in -- I'd be happy to help.

Well, suitably chagrined at missing the obvious, I think I'm set to give this a shot. Thanks for the advice and addition to the reading list, guys.

I've started work on a new story, and for a variety of reasons (mosly people who know what they're doing telling me it's not usually the right thing to do :) ) it's in the third person, rather than the first. No big deal, I can handle that. But... One of the two protagonists spends most of the story blindfolded and undergoing a physical transformation at the same time. While the second protagonist knows what's going on, he doesn't say, and I want to leave the reader in the dark as well, at least until the end. I could do first person for the blindfolded protagonist, but that'd leave me stuck with having to either shift POV (ick!), or leaving out some information and some of the feelings of the other protagonist (again ick), and it'll get in the way later anyway, as I'd prefer to write the sequels, such as they are, in third person, and I don't want to be shifting from first to third. So the question is, am I doomed from the start? My inclination is to leave the focus on my blinded protagonist most of the time, and shift over when necessary and just not bring up the changes, but I'm not sure that can work. (I've written chunks of the story and it seems to, but seeing as it's a work in progress, and mine on top of it, I'm not the best person to judge) Dunno if this is enough information for reasonable opinions, so I'm OK with unreasonable ones as well. :)

Yeah, they definitely do. One of the easiest ways to throw me off a story is to have details of a place I've been in it and have them wrong. That grates, in a way that makes it really hard to take the rest of the story seriously.

Hah! Would that more people wrote like this -- it'd save an awful lot of trees and leave us with far fewer books suitable for mugging people on the shelves. Terse has been, up until relatively recently, a virtue. Many of the novels I really enjoy are short but that doesn't in any way detract from their quality or the enjoyment they bring. Most of the truly great novels from the '60s science fiction and fantasy revival (from people like, say, Roger Zelazny or Ursula K. LeGuinn) would be considered tiny today, as would many of the great pulp (yeah, I know, oxymoron -- deal with it :p) novels of the '30s and '40s. Terse is not bad. It is just different.

I've also been finding that first person can make it more difficult to tell the story in a way that doesn't alienate some readers, at least with a serialized release. I've been writing Yankee, and it's first-person from the point of view of a kid with Asperger's. The problem I've been finding is two-fold -- first, while he's got a lot of unpleasant history he won't think about it, so it's very hard to give people a feel for why things are happening. Best I've managed so far is to keep the history in mind so his actions are consistent, and make sure the props from the past are still lying around and trigger off some response, even if it's one where he does nothing but catch himself from thinking about what they represent. The second problem is that the protagonist, in part because of his problem, is desperately clueless when it comes to people, is afwully unobservant in some situations, and has a tendency to misinterpret people and their actions which filters how he perceives them. The trouble there is that I can't show what really is happening and contrast it with what he thinks is happening -- the best I can do is show what he thinks is happening in enough detail to hopefully clue in the reader that he's hopelessly missing the point as well as giving them a chance to figure out what really is going on. Taken together this can cause some problems. Justin, my lead, has come across as a sort of super-character to a lot of people, which he's not, or at least isn't supposed to be. Rather his past, which he's not thinking about, has conditioned him to avoid situations that cause him trouble, and his cluelessness leads him to miss the things around him that might otherwise affect his behaviour. There's a difference between a character that can get away with anything with no repercussions and one that just doesn't notice the repercussions of doing things, but it takes a while for the difference to manifest, and often people aren't willing to wait to see, and arguably they ought not have to. This might be less of a problem with a non-serialized story (which is how I'm writing this, treating the serialization as a quirk of the release schedule) where it's not a problem to set things up for a half-dozen chapters and later tear down the reader's mistaken idea of what's happening. There's a mild worry with it that I'll disappoint readers along the way. There's also the question of whether a reader ought have to wait that long to know that something's going on that's potentially very different than what looks like is going on. Not that this is an argument for or against first person, I suppose. More an argument that more thought should be put into the choice than I did (which is to say, more thought than none) and it's not a bad idea to do a good second or third editing pass before deciding you're done with things, so you can get an intimation of some of the subtler things out sooner rather than later. Not that you have to set everything up in the first five or ten pages, but blindsiding people isn't necessarily a good thing.

While this definitely sucks, from a quick googling around it looks like this is reasonably treatable, and the outcomes are pretty good. I hope everything goes well for you.