Pertinax

Nor would I, Colin. The man is an embarrassment. How bad can politics get? Each election year it seems worse than before. The last president I still admired when he went out of office was Eisenhower.

The first paragraph as I read it begins with "Well he's done it again" and ends with "Protestantism was inevitable." As to the problems with Israel and/or Palestine, I admit I have no solution. Restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem, maybe? Seriously, though, if you take a long view, it's obvious that the peoples in that part of the world have been killing each other for centuries, and the only times they have stopped is when someone else came in and forced them to stop. Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks. The crusaders never had control of all the lands on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean, so I guess they can't be counted. The French and British after World War I (marginal). So, I'm not very sanguine about any solution that I've encountered.

I am a professional historian (retired), and I must say the history presented in the first paragraph of this thread is the most screwed up version I've read since I no longer grade freshman tests. I could not go on to the second paragraph.

THANKS

I think I will stop at this point. I have made my arguments. What I see put forward against it seems to me barbaric and cruel, not all that different from the crimes against humanity tried at Nuremberg.

IF (please note the conditional, which I realize is a big one), but IF the child in the womb is a human being, and being a fetus is merely a stage of development, like being an infant or an adolescent, then it seems to me that society owes that human the same protection as any other human. If it is okay to kill a five week old fetus, why not a five year old child? Saying the decision should be left to the mother is like saying the parents have an unlimited right to discipline a child. You know, the old 'spare the rod and spoil the child' approach. which has led to multiple cases of child abuse. As I said before, the critical issue is whether the child in the womb is human. As to the Netherlands, I may be wrong. My only experience was in the spring of 1963. At that time, the situation was that one could get pornography, a prostitute, any kind of drugs, or an abortion, pretty much on demand in Amsterdam. And there were places where people engaged in sex on stage for the titillation of the audience. My only experience was seeing prostitutes advertising their wares in the windows of what was called the red light district. If my information was incorrect at the time, or if conditions have changed, then I apologize. Otherwise, I think 'anything goes' is pretty accurate.

So, in some magical manner, a non-human at some point during nine months, changes species and becomes human. Interesting. I don't think the Netherlands is a particularly convincing example. For the past half century, it has the reputation of an 'anything goes' country. But I agree that sex education is essential to reduce, and eventually eliminate, abortions. I am not in an "abrahamic' society. That's condescending and filled with assumptions. I am a Roman Catholic.

A couple of thoughts occur to me in this context. Abortion is not really a form of birth control, any more than warfare is a form of birth control. They are two separate issues. Decisions on birth control should be made before conception. Thomas Robert Malthus, in his seminal study of population, spoke of limitations on population growth as warfare, disease, and famine. We don't really want any of that. Second, there is no real identity between what is legal and what is moral. Lots of things are legal which are not moral, such as cheating on one's partner, or spending the week's salary at the local bar while the kids go hungry. On the other hand, in my opinion, at least, during the Prohibition Era it was moral to drink Bourbon, but illegal. As we are a pluralistic society, with no consensus on this and other moral issues, we have to rely on what is legal, but we mustn't confuse the two. As to the morality of abortion, the essential disagreement is over whether the child in the womb is a human being or not. I don't think anyone would agree to simply killing an innocent human being. If that issue could be settled, the rest would be much easier, but we do not seem to be close on that at all.

You may be the only one, but thank you. Nice to know I'm not entirely alone.

There have been cases where ectopic pregnancies resulted in live births, and other cases where the child was successfully implanted in the uterus, but both are rare. But so is ectopic pregnancy. There are causes of ectopic pregnancy, most of which are outside the control of the mother, but not all. Some are a result of lifestyle choices. In any case, a medical procedure which intends to preserve the lives of both mother an child is always to be preferred. In no case can it be intended to kill either one. If a death does occur, it is a tragedy, and must be an unintended consequence of proper procedures. I do not think it is proper to place the value of one life over that of another. That is my position.

So, if a weaker person is an impediment to a full life by a stronger person, the weaker one can be killed?

Everyone seems to be looking at this issue from the point of view of judges, or the point of view of pregnant women. What about the point of view of the child who is killed?

I think this will be my last posting along these lines, but I cannot stop before giving you the students' version of the early history of Christianity. For these purposes, "Early Christianity" means about the first 600 years. Nero was responsible for the percussion of the Christians. Marcus Aurelius was one of the great persons that was assasinated during the assasinations of the Christians. The Petrarch was and is the leader of the Eastern half of the Catholic church. Saul of Tarsus was the apostle of the genitals. Julius Caesar was converted from Judaism to Christianity. Christianity dealt with the hereafter after death. Augustine of Hippo taught the Holy Trinity. Nicaea was a town where the Nicene theory was established which was the Epicurean doctrine which is the basic theory of Christianity today. Constine had a religious dream where he saw an angle with his shield. The Christian movement lasted for 600 years. Paul, one of the ten deciples, wrote the Old Testament. He preached to the Albigensians. Christ's teachings only lasted for three years. Petrarch was the head of the Church. It was the Pope in Rome. The Byzantine church had seven of these. Gregory the Great sent Augustine of Canterbury into Kent to preach to the Anglicans. The Edict of Milan, which was started by Nero persecuted the end of the Christians and Constantine became the first Christian emperor of the New World. the main usefulness of monks was to copy transcripts Augustus the Hippo became the Bishop or Hippo of Africa Constantine - the only significant thing I can relish about him at this late stage of the game is that he is keeping me in here when I should, by nature, be outside in that wonderful sunshine indulging in the materialistic offerings of this good earth. Thou art my deliverance! Augustine of Hippo was the ruler of a tribe of Germans that threatened the Romen Empire and that's probably wrong but be a good guy and give me partial credit anyway. Constantine was on his deathbed when he died. Christianity began at the time of Christ, approximately in the 4th century B.C. Edict of Milan was a soldier. He was sent ot Africa to fight. He was the only general that could stop the barbaric raids on the frontiers of Rome. He was elected emperior and lost his throne 4 years later. Chi rho was the seal of the Archbishop of teh Roman church. this was before B.C. Christians are called a submersive movement. an outbreak of Christianity sprung up The early Christians sent out missionaries to convert the Catholics, the Moslems, and the pagans. [And this is what the Bible belt knows about Early Christianity.]

First of all, a couple of words of explanation. I taught history at a state institution for 36 years. Every blooper in these topics is absolutely genuine, in the sense that they were written by my students, not by me. Almost all of them are from the freshman level Western Civ course. In all fairness, I should mention that only a minority of my students wrote anything which went into my Examina Incredibilia file. And by the time I had them in upper division classes, they almost never made a contribution. If the student comes from a small town in the South, with a largely conservative religious background (Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ), and with the football coach as his history teacher, he really has very little context into which he can feed the course material and make any sense of it. Hence, the screwed up associations found in these bloopers. A.E. Houseman, in a review of a rival's critical edition of the works of Lucan, wrote that the rival was "a born blunderer, marked cross from the womb, and perverse," and further more, "his ignorance embraces many fields" including grammar, mythology, history, and geography. Houseman's rival was not the only person whose ignorance embraces many fields, as these posts indicate. Now, the preliminaries satisfied, let's see what my students had to say about the ancient Romans. In Rome the Senators were chosen from the Particians, or wealthy class. The lower class were the Parbellians. Their form of government was a Rebalic [meaning Republic]. The Republic was a group of citizens that were the beginning of a primitive legislative body. The social status was very hard to engage in. The Senators made up the senex. Classicism said that everybody was classed according to how they chose to be. The Romans carried on a series of wars with Carthridge. These were called the Plutonic Wars, and helped the people to expand. In the Second Punic War, the invaders were led by Alaric, who was opposed by Cruncial. The story is told by Livy, an eptic writter. Diocletian defeated Hannibal in the great naval battle. Augustine of Hippo was a greek military commander who tried to capture or take as much of the Roman Empire as he could by the use of elephants. Zama was one of the chief rulers of the Roman people Rome completely inalated Carthage in the Punic Wars. The Romans carried on georilla warfare against Hannable. One of the officials of the Roman Republic was the Quaestor, who was the treachery official. The offices of the Roman Republic were done in order, called the circus horronum. Later problems arose, when the two classes clashed. The leader of the lower classes was Tiberius Gracchus, who was assissanited because of some of his trying to run for office illegely. Gracchus was killed in election rites. His brother Gaius institutied a program called pane et circensis which translates as penis and circus, also called bread and services. Ti Gracchus was stabbed to death in a rage. "bread and circuses" comes from a greek phrase. It means literally bread and circuses. Gaius Gracchus institutied his own plan of feeding the poor by holding circuses and collecting the monry to buy food for the poor. The first triumvirate was made up of Crassus, Caesar, and Leviticus. Brutus and Cacuss assinated J. Ceasar. Brutus struck the fatal stab. Caesar was the most outstanding emperor of Rome during his rein. Julius Ceasar had a golden tounge. Then came the time of Saesor. Augustus was also known as Caesar, and was one of the men in the first trivanant. He was a great oriditor. He was assigned the providence of Gaul. One of his opponents was Cicero, who was one of the five successor of Augustus. These civil wars ended in the battle of Phillpi. Cicero attended the University of Oxford. Cicero's writing reveals the classical influence, Cicero trtanslated Greek into the Latin speaking language. episcopus was the literature written by the Romans Octavius and Antonius were split east and west. Cleopatra was born and raised somewhere in the far Eastern part of Western Europe. Ceasar was her first husband, then after he was killed I believe it was Charles who later discovered her, made her ruler of Egypt and took her Southward toward the ocean. Cleopatra had a child be Casser. Cleopatra was detrimental in the downfall of Mark Anthony. The princeps means precepts, you intend to do something but you forgot. Marcus Aurelius was a ruler of the Roman Empire after the time of Julius Caesar. He was the son of Octavius or the adopted son of Julius Caesar. Boethius was the mother of Nero. The five good emperors chose their predecessors. One of the emperors who was most responsible for the fall of the empire was Comnutus. Emperor Justinian was concerned with making his lands more intelligent and more pleasant to live in. Justinian reunited the shores of the Roman Empire. Justinian's architects learned how to build a square dome. Justinian edified the laws. Roman law was summarized in the Corpus Juris Civilis, also known as the Julius Corpus. It was a code of codex. Corpus Juris Civilis was an idea that the Romans had pertaining to law. It stated that a man on trial should be judged by a jury of his peers and not by one man. Corpus Juris Civilis is the Law of Life. An achievement of Roman literature was the Aeneid, a writing showing one mans love of a girl. An epic is a poem longer than a Tue-Thurs lecture period on a hot sunny summer day. One of the biggest things that the Romans did that made a big change in everyone's life, especially in today's world, was building a road. A way traveling without going throw woods & getting lost.

What follows are some comments received on tests in freshman history classes over many years. Here's Western Civ as seen by 18 and 19 year olds. I'm posting this after beign advised to do so by Colin and Mike, so if you don't like it, blame them, okay? Lets begin with ancient Greece. Greek drama originated in the church. The players would act out scenes from the Bible. Plato founded a school that was in a cave that taught mathematics. Platonic ideals were ideals concerning sculpture and how architecture should be arranged, whether in Ionic or Corinthian style. Aeschylus in Greek mythology was the great god of fire. Aristophanes was one of the great writers of tragedians he wrote about comedies. Aeschylus was a tragic writer. Literature was of no importance to the Ancient Greek. All their stories were told directly from the mouth, none were written down. The Architecture of the Greeks were of no value. They lived in caves. The calif was part of the structure of greek towns. A market place. In the center is usually the parthenon of the acropolis. Oresteia was the mother of Alexander the Great. She was crazy. She kept snakes in her bedroom. She influenced Alexander greatly. Also, if it hadn't been for her, Alexander would have never been born. the polis was the first time man tried to organize himself. there were the Plutonian philosophers After Alexander in the Hellestenic Era, Ptolemy of Egypt made all the people name all their male children Ptolemy after himself. Koran was the Emperor of Persia during the first of the Persian invasions at Rome. He was defeated at the Marathon and several other battles, he won some. His fleet was destroyed, and he was badly killed. Ptolemy became the soul ruler of Egypt The Athenian meak and mild and believed in the family group Philip of Macedon conquered Prussia Diocletian was the ruler of Carthage in ancient Greece. Hesiod was one of the commanders under Alexander III during his conquest in Europe. Xerxes was the Greek god of fire. Plato was interested in heavenly bodies (up in the air, not girls) To be a Greek citizen one had to be born in America and so should his parents. There were two types of people the postorina who were the upper class & there were the puritans were the rest of the Greeks. the polis was built in such a way and size that everyone could be easily seen (because the average man was about 5'8") each polis was self-efficient The social status was very hard to engage in. The burning of Athens was led by Thermopylae. Plato started a school for philosophy, for which he teached at for twenty years. The Spartan motto was "Bring home your sword or come on a streacher." Stoacism was the man that taught Plato in his early years. He told Plato his ideals and then plato would make conclusions of his own. Polis was a city-state form of government; or a ruler of Egypt. Only male men were citizens. Platonic ideals was a belief that the physical world was a reflection of the physical world. Aristophanes were the followers of Aristotle. The Furies chase Orestia around and he fleas. Aristotle said every citizen should recognize each other. This was all before B.C. Culturally the city-states were entirely internal. The city-state was a true blend of Pure Greek culture. The Albigensians were a group of people from the Classical period. They were one of the first Greek speaking civilizations. The Albigensians lived on the island of Asia. They were not very warlike but were more of a merchant oriented people. Philip of Macedon was the greek king of Macedon who by briding and conorting the other greek city-states gain control of Greace. His son Axleisandine the Great conquerd the rest of the civilizatives world. Eumenides was a Greek, he believed that the earth was flat and he discovered a way in which the circumference of the Earth could be measured. Plato is noted for the parabola of the cave Well, that's enough for now. If anyone thinks it worth while, I have lots more where this came from. Pertinax

As I understand it, the legal situation is that the BSA is a private, voluntary organization, and so they can admit or exclude anyone they want. That would seem to apply tolocal troops as much as to the national organization. Persuasion would seem to be the better approach rather than legal action.

I'm available.

What's the difference between a civil union and a civil marriage? There must be something, if it raises such a storm, but I don't see the difference. Maybe you have to be a lawyer.

While Obama is clearly better than Romney on gay issues, those are not the only issues at stake in the coming election. Besides, who knows what will actually happen after the election. There is no such thing as an honest politician.

Our amazing AD master, Mike, solved the problem for me. It had to do with the Java script which runs the update announcements on the home page, and the fact that I had updated Internet Explorer on my computer, but if you want the technical details, you'll have to ask him. All I can do is bow in awe before his superior wisdom.

I do no seem to be able to access the home page for Awesomedude. I can get everything else. When I try to access the home page to check my story orread someone else's, however, the page flashes on the screen, then I get a message from Internet Explorer saying it has stopped trying to access a crashed site. This problem began sometime Saturday, and has persisted ever since. My own computer skills are very limited, so I have absolutely no idea what is causing this, or what to do about it. HELP!!!! Pertinax

This is a great story. I love every chapter.

Thanks. I always appreciate being appreciated. Hope you continueto enjoy Bryce and his friends.

The quotation to which I was referring is dated November 6, although I have no idea when you sent it. However, after reading your response, I did figure out how to read it. Thanks. P.S. Quotation is a noun. Quote is a verb.

Sorry that some of you didn't like the religious element in Dermot. I did not think I snuck it in, but then I was planning on this element from the beginning. Seemed to me a natural development. From all I've read, a majority of people, including a majority of gay people, want some spirituality in their lives. I think it is unrealistic to ignore that. And I think it is healthier, spiritually speaking, to find that satisfaction in a context which is also open to reasonable discourse, not just an emotional experience or an abandonment of reason. But I do not think I was merely engaging in salesmanship. I got a lot of responses to the first 12 chapters, the greater part of which were positive, and some specifically lauding the religious element. That's why I decided to begin a Part II. I had intended to stop with Chapter 12. I guess, as long as most responses are positive, I will continue to struggle with Dermot's struggles. Thanks to those who had positive comments. Including the positive comments about my writing even when the author did not like my content. I did not expect to please everyone. P.S. I do not understand Colin's post of 6 November.