When to start posting?

[Josiah Jacobus-Parker]

So, I've been writing a new serialized novel to add to AD, but so far, I only have a few chapters.

For lack of better place to put this, I'm going to ask this here.

When should I start submitting it for posting?

I know where I want the story to go, and how it's going to get there... what I don't know though, is when I'm going to have the time to keep sending it there so to speak. Should I wait until I've almost finished it to start posting? Or should I just go ahead, submit the first chapter now, and then just follow up with the rest when I finish each chapter?

I waited until I had the first eight chapters written of The Angel, before I even started posting it, but then life caught up with me and I suddenly found myself with a lot less time on my hands to spend writing. And then of course, when you do have time, you have to also have the spark, the inspiration, the flow, whatever you want to call it, to write AT THAT TIME. The result was that sometimes there were gaps of several months between chapters. I know how frustrating it can be for readers when a story seems to just dissapear for months on end.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask, is what people think I should do? And do they mind if there's no regular chapter up-date?

My plan was to get the prologue and the first chapter posted for Halloween... but now, since I don't know when the following chapters will be ready, I'm not sure if I should do that anymore. Maybe wait until I have a more substantial block of chapters which I can space out while I'm writing the rest?

I guess this is contains a more general question for all writers and readers. That being, when is it right to start posting? How much do you have to write before it's right?

[Trab]

I really dislike ongoing serial stories. More often than not, I'll bypass them in favor of a series that is complete. The fact that it may take months, even years, if ever, to get the next issue, turns me off completely. There are some stories though, which are of sufficient length that I can entertain myself with it for a long time before running into the 'wall'.

A good example is TSOI. Lots of chapters, and they kept me going for a long time. Finally I reached the end, and then I waited till there were some 8 chapters ahead for me to read.

Sometimes I never get back to a serial story at all. That's really sad, but I cannot remember enough about the story, yet I remember too much to want to read it all over again. So it just gets 'junked'. And yes, The Angel is a victim of that. I've never gone back to it, despite liking it as far as I got.

My personal recommendation is to NOT post a serial story. Or, leave off with it in a place/position in which the story is essentially complete in its own right, with subsequent chapters forming a new 'arc' as they say in TV.

[Tanuki Racoon]

I really dislike ongoing serial stories. More often than not, I'll bypass them in favor of a series that is complete.

Yet his royal Trabness did read AWMS :)

Seriously, I did get complaints about it being posted serially. However once you're done it's hard to post it all only to find out you need to fix something. Most authors don't go back and do a 'directors cut' as I did, probably because they have neither the time nor the patience.

I prefer posting serially because at some point you'll get an email like this:

"Dear Dumbass: How come Alex left his suitcase at Nicky's and all of a sudden it's reappeared two chapters later?"

It's easier to fix that right then instead of having to potentially re-write a LOT of text. The suitcase is a spurious thing, but I hate continuity gaffes. HATE HATE HATE. So it's your choice dear sir.

[vwl]

When should I start submitting it for posting?

I agree that there is nothing more frustrating than a good story with a long (or even permanent) hiatus.

My advice is this:

1. If you write quickly and as a consequence can churn out chapters even if time is limited, go ahead and post serially. Michael Arram seems to be of this type; at least his stories at IOMFATS appear in rapid succession.

2. If you are willing to commit religiously to a schedule, then serializing the story is fine. Mickey S (of Second Wind and Coy Boy) is of this type. His chapters appear regularly on the same day of the week. I don't know if that is because he has written enough of a backlog to publish them that way or is dedicated to his stories enough to keep them moving.

3. Otherwise, and I think this is the advice for most writers, wait until the story has been entirely drafted and/or all the chapters are in the editor(s) hands. Then, the reader has a reasonable guarantee of completion.

4. Finally, and this is how I did my two stories, Jake's Hand and Jake's Side, have the story virtually finished and release chapters on a regular schedule. (I did it every two days, leaving time only for a final read-through.0

My advice is always worth what you pay for it.

vwl

[dude]

Duh... I am amazed this subject has come up.

The whole raison d'etre of AwesomeDude is to provide a place where newer writers can mix with more experienced ones and share knowledge about the art and science of writing fiction. Feedback from their peers is what inspired many authors to settle here at AwesomeDude.

The serial story is the staple of the nearly 40-thousand unique visitors we get here every month. We are ALWAYS looking for new and talented authors to do both short stories and serial novels. Admittedly, when we take on a new author and his serial story we like to see several chapters done in advance... if he doesn't have a track record of finishing stories. But we do make exceptions.

As the official point of view... to achieve the goals of this site... we encourage serial stories... and when they are really good but sometimes weeks, even months go by between chapters... well we can understand, expecially in the case of students. But it is the newer -and in many cases younger writers- who benefit from feedback as they try to 'hit their stride.' As for our readers... it's up to them. Trab won't usually read a story until it's finished... but he makes exceptions.

Josiah, if you know what's going into the story and where it is going and with your track record of completing your previous serial novel, I have every confidence inviting you to begin posting your new story.

Part of the motivation of many of our writers in sitting down and using that idle time to work on another chapter is the fact that they have fans who are just as happy as the author to see a new chapter posted.

[Trab]

Gosh. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments. I started to make up a spreadsheet to keep track of all the stories I'd started to read, which chapter I'd gotten to, date of the last chapter, etc. (okay, AS again: organize, organize, organize) but when I went back to some of the stories, they weren't at the original locations. Then I'd have to start searching site after site till I could find it/them. That's what makes AwesomeDude such a blessing. Many of the best stories are here, and I don't have to search all over the place.

And yes, I make exceptions all the time. I will often check out a first chapter, and if I'm hooked, and I mean really hooked, I'll wait eagerly for that next chapter. That doesn't mean I don't prefer to simply read till I can't keep my eyes open any more though, finishing the whole series in one go.

[Graeme]

I've heard a number of people say that they prefer to wait for a story to be completed before they started, but they've all made exceptions to that rule, too. The most common complaint has been stories that just aren't finished -- they don't want to encounter another one that dies without completion.

From what I know now, I would say build up a reserve of chapters before posting. How many is a big question and hard to answer because it's linked to the posting frequency. I would say a regular posting cycle of longer than four weeks (or a month) is probably unworkable. I just managed to keep within that with New Brother but I recognised how much frustration that left the readers in.

One option, if you're not sure when you'll be able to get back to it, is to think of the story as having sections. I did this with New Brother, in that I got the story to chapter 10, then took a break for a couple of months. It was a convenient place to stop without driving the readers crazy. I'll probably do the same with my current story, too -- to allow myself to get aheard so that when I start posting again the readers will get regular posts (and before anyone asks, I'm looking at taking a break after posting chapter 16 -- no need to panic).

It's a tough question and I don't think there is a single correct answer. All we can do is offer guidelines.

[Josiah Jacobus-Parker]

Well, in light of all these helpful comments, I guess AD is just going to have to wait for it. Maybe I can write you a short story for All-hallows.

I like the idea of posting a series of 10 or so chapters at a regular interval, and then taking a break. Kind of like a TV series has seasons. So perhaps that's what I'll end up doing.

And just to quell and rumors that seem to have sprung up already, no, it's not a sequel to The Angel.

But it is going to be darker.

[jack scribe]

So I guess what I'm trying to ask, is what people think I should do? And do they mind if there's no regular chapter up-date?

I guess this is contains a more general question for all writers and readers. That being, when is it right to start posting? How much do you have to write before it's right?

Hi Joshia,

I think that continuity in story posting is extremely important. The reader must have some sense of assurance that chapters will flow with regularity. I always have enough "in the can" to allow for dry periods or busy moments in my life. Once I start posting a story, I make sure it appears on a weekly basis.

Graeme, I notice, follows an 'every two-week' posting practice. His readers have probably adjusted their schedule to allow for this pattern.

Readers can be a fickle lot. Not only is there a quantity of material available, memory lapse sometimes short-circuits interest in a story if delays occur in posting.

I think your m.o. with the "Angel" story is a good rule of thumb.

Best wishes on your new story.

Jack

[DesDownunder]

I started reading Nifty stories about 4 years ago, and quickly discovered it was the completed stories posted regularly that held my interest the most. If the post is delayed by more than a week I forget who was doing what to whom and when. (yes I do take my memory pill everyday.) After a month I have to go back and re-read some of the previous chapters to recall the plot. Yes I do like a plot. In fact I find I often skip the sex descriptions unless they are integral to the plot or very well written.

There have been some extraordinary, very long serialised stories like "Bill and Danny". (Now Completed)

If you want to get the true spirit of the 1960's then search it out at Nifty.

However the obviously completed story that is constructed along the lines of the novel is what pleases me most. I like a beginning, middle and an end.

I am in admiration of those authors who can turn out a new chapter consistently, writing on the fly.

I think the story and what the author wants to achieve is very determining in what is the suitable posting schedule.

There are some stories out there that can be fun reading and don't need to finish.

Others are like a good book - you can't put it down until you finish it.

I do have a dislike of stories that suddenly change title in a series. This may be valid in the mind of the author but it more often than not loses my interest.

My own story (novel) will be published when I finish it. Don't hold your breathe guys it won't be this year.

[The Pecman]

Hi, Des. I agree with much of what you say. The first story I wrote, Groovy Kind of Love, kind of jumped out of me fully-formed. I knocked out the entire first draft in one month, while working a 60-hour a week job, and was able to post a 5000-word chapter every day or two. For awhile, I knew what it must've been liked for legendary author Walter Gibson, who was known to write at least 7 or 8 entire novels a year, and did so for about forty years (including the famous Shadow pulp novels).

I agree that having a real beginning, middle, and ending are fundamentally important in a novel. Another ingredient I look for is appealing characters, with a lead character that grows and changes as the story progresses. While I agree that plot is more important than sex, I also think sex is a natural part of stories in this genre. I think there's a way to handle sex that doesn't have to be offensive or pornographic. To me, subtlety works a lot better than explicitness, but at the same time, I think for a writer to shy away from it and not have any sex just frustrates the reader, especially if you're writing about love and emotion.

I also have to confess I'm a curmudgeon about the so-called "serial" stories, because to me, 90% of them are just ideas in search of an ending. I think if the authors had broken the stories down into two or three separate novels, rather than writing 90 chapters without stopping, the overall story would be a lot more focused. To me, too many of them are like soap operas -- very episodic, without a real character arc, and they tend to wander all over the map. But I readily admit there are a few examples of these stories that are engaging and entertaining.

Best of luck with your story, and please chime in if you'd like some ideas or assistance.

[Graeme]

While I agree that plot is more important than sex, I also think sex is a natural part of stories in this genre. I think there's a way to handle sex that doesn't have to be offensive or pornographic. To me, subtlety works a lot better than explicitness, but at the same time, I think for a writer to shy away from it and not have any sex just frustrates the reader, especially if you're writing about love and emotion.

I understand what you are saying, I think. A story that is dealing with love and emotion will almost certainly involve sex at some point. However, does the writer need to write about it?

I will admit that I'm in a position where I will NOT write sex scenes, partially because my wife reads everything I write and has said she doesn't want to see one. However, she has no problems with innuendo and suggestion. For example, in Falls Creek Lessons I have a character getting mentally ready for sex (which didn't eventuate -- he mis-read what was going on) AND reminancing on the aftermath -- the actual event is not described. Similarly, in my current story, Heart of The Tree, sex will occur -- I just won't put in "on camera" (so to speak). My wife told me to read the last section of one of her favourite stories, Pride and Prejudice. She has said it is obvious what has happened, but it is not described. For the record, I haven't read that story yet...

[DesDownunder]

Thanks Pecman,

My story is held up by end of year work schedule.

I find I need the inspiration, a continuing self-dialog and a sense of unlimited time to write.

Interestingly enough this doesn't seem to apply to my recent resurgent interest in poetry.

After 35 years I suddenly became motivated (by the AwesomeDude site's existence) to write the two poems I recently posted on AD. The first began life over 30 years ago as a prologue to a never finished play. The second popped into my head after a brief nostalgic memory of an old flame. Yes he was the one with the hair oil. The rest is fiction. Neither of these poems have any relationship to my novel so I think the creative process is busy within my head building the burst of reserves I need to get on with it.

I know from previous experience that once the writing is given "free reign" it is very hard to stop. Just look at this post. or maybe I am just rambling?

Graeme's self imposed (at his wife's request) to not have explicit sexual writing in his work is quite admirable, but I do not mind reading erotic sex acts. Porn for the sake of it in a story is a bit like a film that suddenly has the two leads humping because the film industry thinks that is what will sell the film. Well, they might be right, but I won't be very interested in watching. Do you know that the sex scenes are timed so that by the time you have found the fast forward button on the remote control, the sex has finished?

Porn by itself is a different thing altogether and can be fun for all the reasons that it is porn.

I have read sex descriptions that have almost had me in tears, they were so beautiful.

So I am not against sex in stories but I do prefer it to be necessary to the plot.

How explicit the description is, is best left to the author's vision and talents.

I am fascinated by your term, Pecman, "this genre". Do you mean "gay fiction" or something else?

Gay without sex is a phrase all too often imposed on us all. I certainly do not want to be seen as part of any group that does that, even if the sex is just in my imagination or comes from someone's writing.

My thanks for getting me thinking about all this.

We need an emoticon for thinking.

[The Pecman]

I find I need the inspiration, a continuing self-dialog and a sense of unlimited time to write.

Yeah, I suffer from similar problems. I've changed jobs three times in the past 4 years, and my current situation has got me occupied with a grueling schedule. I realize to an extent that I'm using the stress of my job to avoid writing, but I figure, when I'm ready, I'll do it.

I have read sex descriptions that have almost had me in tears, they were so beautiful. So I am not against sex in stories but I do prefer it to be necessary to the plot.

Yes, I agree completely. I think as long as the sex is necessary to the plot, and it's believable and not too outlandish, I can go with it. I have to confess, though, my eyes glaze over when other writers' sex scenes start to be a list of body parts, and how part A goes into part B. My rationale has always been to describe how the participants are feeling, rather than detail the action per se.

I am fascinated by your term, Pecman, "this genre". Do you mean "gay fiction" or something else?

Well, much of what is on this site falls into what I call "gay teen romantic fiction," or "gay teen erotica." It's kind of a loose sub-genre of all gay fiction, but I confess, it's something on which I have a compelling interest.

Stephen King has been asked many times, "why do you write about horror?" And his answer was, "do you think I have a choice?" Writers write about what their muses tell them to write. I have written professionally before for 20 years, mostly technical articles, but my two novels were both done from the heart, and I think they each cut a lot closer to who and what I am. I don't think there can be a better audience than writing for yourself, as long as you enjoy what you do.

I think I have at least two or three more decent gay novels in me. But I try to take it a step at a time. Just getting my current one off the ground is a daily struggle.

I understand what you are saying, I think. A story that is dealing with love and emotion will almost certainly involve sex at some point. However, does the writer need to write about it?

If you want to remain true to the story, yes, I think you have to write about sex if it naturally occurs in the plot. Otherwise, you're self-censoring the book.

To me, it would be very frustrating to write a book, then subject it to what somebody else thinks has to be cut out of it. I think one of the benefits of on-line publishing is the relative lack of editorial interference. Having the freedom to do what you want is imperative -- at least from my point of view.

At the same time, I also recognize the need for boundries. There are lines I personally won't cross, when it comes to fiction, but I don't have somebody else telling me where those lines are. Read the previous discussion from this board on "Explicit" content (which I think is still archived here), and tell me what you think.

[DesDownunder]

Hi Pecman,

Stephen King has been asked many times, "why do you write about horror?" And his answer was, "do you think I have a choice?"

When Margaret Mitchell wanted to start writing a book, she asked her husband what should she write about. He told her to write what she knew. "Gone With The Wind" was the result.

...I have written professionally before for 20 years, mostly technical articles...

Hence your dislike of descriptions of part A fitting into part B?

I agree. Some people introduce their characters by having them describe themselves from their personal, user's manual. Sometimes you just have to get passed that to find that the rest of the story is OK.

I don't think there can be a better audience than writing for yourself, as long as you enjoy what you do.

Stanley Kubrick once said that he made movies for himself and hoped like hell that enough people would like it sufficiently to pay to see it, so he could make another one.

And I guess that is why we need our readers feedback so we feel encouraged to write again.

As for boundaries and censorship, (self imposed or otherwise) I think we are on the verge of a new age of socially manipulated restrictions to limit freedom of expression and thus our thoughts.

But that is a whole other can of taboo worms.

I hadn't really considered that I have been enjoying reading "Gay teenage romance" but yeah you are right, that's what it is. On the otherhand I'm rather inclined to want it to be more, whatever that means.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts.

[The Pecman]

Hence your dislike of descriptions of part A fitting into part B?

No, my past occupation writing technical reviews and articles (and sometimes interviews) had nothing to do with that. I criticized the listing of body parts as a reader, not just as a writer.

My point is, if you're writing a coming-of-age story, or at least a story with teenage characters who fall deeply in love -- straight or gay -- then sex is almost going to have to be part of it. But I think the sex scenes can be subtle, there's a way to communicate what's going on without being explicit, and yet still be true to the characters and to the audience. Most importantly, it can still be entertaining.

There's a place for explicit stories, too, and I think there are examples of those that are well-written. It's not my thing to write them, though, because my preference is to try to tell a good story that might have some sex in it, rather than a story mostly about sex.

As for boundaries and censorship, (self imposed or otherwise) I think we are on the verge of a new age of socially manipulated restrictions to limit freedom of expression and thus our thoughts.

Well, my comment was in regards to Graeme's difficult position. To me, if the writer is setting limits on what he or she will write, then I don't agree that it's censorship or a limitation of freedom of expression. For example, I won't read, nor will I write, stories involving torture, sex with small children, sex with adults and children, bodily functions, and stuff like that. Those are the limits i set.

Some of this stuff is illegal in some countries. I personally think nothing should be illegal, when it comes to the written word, and I'm generally not a fan of legislating morality. But I do think individual writers have the freedom to set their own limits and boundries on what they write about.

As a sidenote: I had a brief discussion with The Dude regarding the drug content of Jagged Angel when he first posted it awhile back. He was initially dismayed by it, and understandably so. I argued that, number one, the characters' drug use was realistic and reflected real-life, particularly for contemporary high school athletes. Secondly, I showed that there were ramifications and tragedies that happened because of drugs and alcohol, so this definitely wasn't a story that glorified either of them. The drugs were only a background to a much larger story. With that in mind, he accepted the novel.

But I couldn't write a story that had a lead character who leaned on drugs or alcohol throughout the plot. To me, that's just not the kind of thing I would ever want to read. And yet, I would staunchly defend somebody else who'd want to do that. To me, it's their decision to make.

[DesDownunder]

I had not meant for "Part A into Part B " comment to be taken other than as friendly fun banter.

I have no argument with your discussion points at all. I too would defend the right of the individual to "set their own limits and boundaries." to quote you, Pecman.

I would like to see some cool, calm, discussion on the ethics and moralities of various boundaries, but even that is problematic, I should think.

Oh Well Just a thought.

[The Pecman]

I would like to see some cool, calm, discussion on the ethics and moralities of various boundaries, but even that is problematic, I should think.

No, I don't have a problem with that at all. But if you are kidding, make sure you make that clear in the message. Trying to read body language in on-line communications is very tough. I saw nothing in your message that looked playful or joking at all.

We did have a spirited debate here on "How Explicit Is Enough" (or words to that effect) a couple of years ago, but that was on the old forum software, and I'm not sure if that message thread survived. It all came about because the owner of another website told his writers, "I've decided to remove all stories here that have explicit sexual content, because I don't think it's appropriate." This came without warning, and bewildered both writers and website readers.

I was outraged, because I not only think it's unnecessary, I think it does a disservice to the writers, who were giving him their stories to post for free. However, I made a case that, if you were submitting your story to a conventional publisher, they would be within their rights to request changes. If you refused, then they could agree not to publish it and the writer would not be paid. That I understand.

The question I posed in my original message was, "how much sex is too much?" Where do you draw the line? These are difficult questions, and I think many people had different opinions on the subject. I asked the owner of the other website if he would draw up a list to specify what he would or would not allow, such as age limits or types of sexual activity, but it quickly disintegrated into a messy argument. (The site has since disappeared.)

I thought it was sad that the thing blew out of proportion (no pun intended), but I think the nature of sexual content in stories like these is a concern. My point was, it's a decision the writer himself has to confront. But at the same time, to avoid including any sex in a coming-of-age story seems disingenuous to me.

[DesDownunder]

My apologies if I was unclear in the intent of my remarks re Parts A into Part B.

By way of explanation, it is a standing joke in my technical/engineering environment that Part A fitting into Part B is a sexual innuendo. I had (mistakenly, obviously) that your reference was the same for that remark. I took it that the innuendo was somehow universal in all technical worlds, hence my tongue in cheek reply. I had meant it as fun. So convinced was I that you had intended the innuendo I did not bother to enhance my reply with an emoticon for clarity as to my light-hearted intentions.

I am a stickler for using emoticons and disclaimers to assist "net body language", but in this instance I misinterpreted the comment and that led to the present embarrassment for me.

This comes down to simple misunderstanding based on an assumption that was incorrect on my part.

I would like to see some cool, calm, discussion on the ethics and moralities of various boundaries, but even that is problematic, I should think.

No, I don't have a problem with that at all.

To clarify I was not saying you specifically had a problem with it but that any discussion on such matters of ethical and moral boundaries was in itself difficult and fraught with problems.

I would never state someone's reaction or point of view would be problematic, only that a matter under discussion might in general, pose a problem.

In reality I can only emphasise that I am in agreement with your view on most of the issues raised here, including those in your most recent post.

It would be a shame to let local language customs and personalities interfere with our fruitful cultural exchange. As a rule I try not to invoke direct accusations at people except in light hearted fun and even then with care for the other person's feelings.

To me a forum is not a place to attack other people but to raise and discuss issues of common interest or to make a stand on an issue that is important to me.

It is of course possible that I have over-reacted in this reply, but I thought I should attempt to clear the air as it is not my desire to further any unpleasant interaction.

We are after all, on the same side as far as I can tell.

[colinian]

I'm just lurking here, I don't know enough to add anything that others are saying much better anyway, but I'm sure learning a lot! Thank you, guys!

Colin