Celebrations Across the Calendar

[Camy]

I'm loving this.

The concept is wonderful, the calendar presentation perfect, and the stories ... incredibly, not a filler in sight. If you haven't started reading these, then do ... I'm rapidly becoming a Cole Parker 'fan'.

Camy

[Cole Parker]

"I'm rapidly becoming a Cole Parker 'fan'.

Camy "

Awww, shucks! I'm not used to having fans. I don't know how to act!

Thanks for the very kind words.

These stories were lots of fun to write. I hope everyone can enjoy them.

Cole

[DesDownunder]

"I'm rapidly becoming a Cole Parker 'fan'.

Camy "

Hey, I read him first. I'm became a fan as soon as I read his stories.

I guess there is room for both of us Camy.

Cole Parker wrote:

Awww, shucks! I'm not used to having fans. I don't know how to act!

Just relax and enjoy it Cole I'm sure Camy and I will do all the work.

[Cole Parker]

Do all the work, huh? You have it cut out for you. I don't envy you. That's heavy lifting, from way down under like that.

C

[EleCivil]

If there's a list of Cole Parker fans starting, mark me down.

Celebrations is great! I just got around to reading (most of) them today. I usually don't read short stories - more of a novel/serial fan - but these were all fun to read.

[Cole Parker]

You guys are making me blush, and I'm not sure I have enough blood to permit such an activity.

I agree with you, EC. I prefer longer stories myself. I'm sort of in the process of deciding to write another.

Hey, now that I have you gathered here, I have a question about that. I've asked before, but never seen an answer. You guys all tend to post chapters as you write them. My question is, why? I always write the entire story before I begin putting it up, and the reason is simple; this allows me to make changes at the beginning that events in the middle or end make necessary. You guys don't seem to need that freedom, which amazes and befuddles me. Why not? Why the rush to post?

C

[Graeme]

In my case I like to get a story out to the readers in a reasonable time. Holding onto a story for 12 months (and it can take me that long to write a novel) before starting to post it feels odd to me.

[DesDownunder]

You guys are making me blush, and I'm not sure I have enough blood to permit such an activity.

I agree with you, EC. I prefer longer stories myself. I'm sort of in the process of deciding to write another.

Hey, now that I have you gathered here, I have a question about that. I've asked before, but never seen an answer. You guys all tend to post chapters as you write them. My question is, why? I always write the entire story before I begin putting it up, and the reason is simple; this allows me to make changes at the beginning that events in the middle or end make necessary. You guys don't seem to need that freedom, which amazes and befuddles me. Why not? Why the rush to post?

C

Yes I agree Cole, I find that my writing style demands I get the idea down and then go back and flesh it out.

This often allows changes to the plot and characters that I would not be able to do otherwise.

I am in admiration of those who can start out and write beautifully without needing to do this.

I guess it is a matter of personal style and ability. Neither is wrong or right, just what people are comfortable with and good at doing.

I am also learning. I have found that writing more than one story at a time is not the distraction I thought it would be. Switching from one story to another seems to allow me to get on with writing instead of sitting waiting for inspiration to occur. Of course this also means that it will take longer to get a story finished.

I have a preference for novels or longer stories, but occasionally I come across a charming short story that is really no more than an essay in length.

I would rather listen to a symphony than a string quartet, but I recognise that without the shorter works the symphony would not have been developed. So short stories may well allow an author to find his talents to go on to something longer.

Cole, just keep on doing what you do. You do it so well. Sorry if I made you blush again, but that is what we fans do best.

[EleCivil]

Why the rush to post?

Well, for my first story, Leaves and Lunatics, I had to type it all at a public computer, and I didn't have anywhere to save it. So, I'd spend a few weeks planning out what I wanted to do with the chapter, then marathon-write it in one sitting and send it in to The Dude and Nifty, without any real editing (and MAN, it shows. Tons of errors, and plenty of those "I-can't-believe-I-wrote-that" parts that I look back on now and cringe). It was the only way I could write at the time.

When I did this, I got a lot of feedback, chapter-by-chapter. People would e-mail me and say things like "I really like the way you worded this" or "This part's awful - don't do that again". That helped me to improve a lot. Most of that good feedback came from people here at AD, by the way - you guys rock.

My overall style changed so much over the course of that story (or at least between the ones I wrote for Nifty, pre-AD, and the ones I wrote after posting here). Because of the serialization, I could sort of re-invent myself with every new chapter until I finally found the a style that I wanted to keep. I knew, somewhere around chapter 8, that once I finished that story, I could do another one, and that I could make it better. I used the rest of the story to experiment, basically - seeing what worked, what didn't, on a chapter-by-chapter basis (It's really episodic and sitcom-ish - a new problem introduced and then solved each chapter). If I had written it all at once before showing it to anybody, that wouldn't have happened - I would have stuck with my first style the entire time.

When I started to write Laika, writing it all at once before starting to post never occurred to me. So many other authors followed the write-and-post model that I thought that that was just how internet novels were always done, and never gave it a second thought.

I'm thinking of writing big chunks of my next story before posting, though. Just to see what that's like.

[Cole Parker]

Thanks, guys. If I can summarize what you?ve said, it would be like this. Graeme, you write something and basically are impatient to get it up. I know that feeling. I generally feel good about what I write and want people to see it. I have this problem, however, of being something of a perfectionist, and know if I post too soon, I?ll regret it later when I feel the need to change something, so hold off if I?m writing something long. I think you, Graeme, are much better at this than I am. Your style is so controlled, so calm and reasoned, and I?m much more frenetic with what I write, and I?m much more just feeling my way. I?d like to have your mastery of the craft. I don?t mind holding off, even if it?s for 12 months, because I know the story will benefit from it. Actually, however, it?s never taken me that long to write anything. I tend to write in fits and starts, and when I?m going along well, I can write for hours at a time. Do that, and no story is going to take 12 months.

Des, you write very much like I do, and for very much the same reasons. You, like me, are shocked other people seem to know what they?re doing so well they can post a chapter at a time without painting themselves into corners. We both look on in awe the way others can write and post and write and post.

I didn?t mean to imply I thought we were wrong doing it this way, Des. I?m more surprised everyone doesn?t do it like we do, and so am looking for compelling reasons why they don?t.

I too can write more than one story at once. It keeps your mind working and prevents writers? block, I think.

EC, you did it sequentially from necessity, and I feel even more admiration that it worked so well for you. As far as going back afterwards and finding things you?d liked to have done differently, I do that all the time, even after multiple edits. But of course, you?re giving one of the prime reasons I don?t post till I?m done. You have no idea how many changes have been made in the final product you see from what I began with. I did go back and I did make changes, changes that wouldn?t have been possible had I posted each chapter as I wrote it.

I hope others will respond to this. It seems to me that many more people write and post a chapter at a time than do it as Des and I do. And I still haven?t heard a reason that makes me think that?s the way to go. But I still do think that you guys that do it that way are simply marvelous, and much more capable than I am.

Cole

[Graeme]

Graeme, you write something and basically are impatient to get it up. I know that feeling. I generally feel good about what I write and want people to see it. I have this problem, however, of being something of a perfectionist, and know if I post too soon, I?ll regret it later when I feel the need to change something, so hold off if I?m writing something long. I think you, Graeme, are much better at this than I am. Your style is so controlled, so calm and reasoned, and I?m much more frenetic with what I write, and I?m much more just feeling my way. I?d like to have your mastery of the craft. I don?t mind holding off, even if it?s for 12 months, because I know the story will benefit from it. Actually, however, it?s never taken me that long to write anything. I tend to write in fits and starts, and when I?m going along well, I can write for hours at a time. Do that, and no story is going to take 12 months.

A small correction -- I'm usually a few chapter ahead of my editor, so you're not seeing the original, but a very careful edit of the original writing. I also have some beta-readers the un-edited stuff and will occasionally make a change to an earlier chapter as a consequence, but that's not common. If you like, it's a compromise situation -- I have several chapter drafted ahead of what's being posted and that allows me to make adjustments when needed.

[DesDownunder]

Cole wrote:

I didn?t mean to imply I thought we were wrong doing it this way, Des.

I didn't mean that I thought it was wrong. What I was trying to say was that both methods can give excellent results. Which method works best for any particular person is very much up to the individual's talents.

Excellent summary there Cole.

Graeme, even with advance beta-readers and editing you still have to get it basically down without leaving anything out. That is what amazes me. When I go back over my own writing I see whole sequences I did not even think about that need to be inserted. Sometimes this can impact on a much earlier chapter.

I am happy to work my way. I am like Cole in admiration of your method but doubt I would be able to do it.

I just love being able to talk about these things with you all. So illuminating, so generous of everyone to participate too.

[Graeme]

It was easier for my first two novels because they were first-person narratives. I just had to record what happened to that person in the correct order. It's a lot harder with my latest story because there are so many things going on that can all be reported on, so I have to keep making decisions on what part will be written at any given time. It's a lot more of a challenge BUT I'm also a lot further ahead than I was with the first two novels.

[Camy]

Well, for my first story, Leaves and Lunatics, I had to type it all at a public computer, and I didn't have anywhere to save it.

WTF! I am in awe, total awe.

So many other authors followed the write-and-post model that I thought that that was just how internet novels were always done, and never gave it a second thought.

Me too. I'd written a couple of shorts, and wanted to tackle a longer piece. I assumed you wrote a chapter and posted - it never occurred to me to complete it first, and then post! Duh.

Also, I just started with an idea and let it run away on its own. No sign of an outline ... which is really stupid. I suppose the upside is that it makes it interesting on a daily basis, the downside is continuity, though my editor takes care of that.

In a perfect world I'd have a well thought out outline, and cards with character details on, and write until 'the end', edit, and then post on a weekly basis... but then life isn't perfect, and neither am I!

[vwl]

If you do write your entire story before posting, which is my preference, there is no bar to posting it chapter by chapter--once weekly, twice weekly, etc. To some, that release tactic might be cruel, but it has t he advantage of publicity, with each chapter an announcement that there is something out there to read. I suspect you get more readers by an extended posting.

Furthermore, you may get comments that cause you to change the latter chapters.

Finally, of course, you can be finishing your subsequent novel as the postings are released on your first, so the reader may never know of any delay.

[Cole Parker]

If you do write your entire story before posting, which is my preference, there is no bar to posting it chapter by chapter--once weekly, twice weekly, etc.

Exactly. That's what I do, too. I finish, then begin posting chapters serially. I have another reason for doing it this way. When I'm reading a story I really like, I hate waiting forever for the next chapter. Since I'm a man of little patience, forever means more than a day or two. Because I feel this way when reading something, I like to post this way too. This site is admirable in that they will permit me to post twice weekly; Prom is being posted that way now. If the story weren't complete before I started, I'd never meet such an onerous deadline. Having it done, it's easy.

That's something that hasn't been broached here: deadlines. If you're writing a story and posting to a certain schedule, what do the upcoming deadlines for submitting your next entry do to the creative process?

I agree that this is great stuff to talk about. Writing is inherently a lonely activity. It's wonderful to be able to dissect some aspects of it it out in the open this way.

Cole

[DesDownunder]

vwl wrote:

...there is no bar to posting it chapter by chapter--once weekly, twice weekly, etc. To some, that release tactic might be cruel, ...

I don't see this as cruel at all. In fact I think in this busy modern world many people only desire a small amount to read at a time. Consistent posting is more important to many people in this regard. If I know an author is going to publish frequently I am more inclined to read their stories at least till it concludes or becomes less than interesting to me.

I have been asking myself about what frequency of posting would be best.

My own reading experience tells me that everyday is too much. If I miss a day's post due to lack of my time, I might just lose interest or not want to make the effort to "catch up." That's just slack on my part or perhaps the story started to wane a little for me anyway and I am using the missed chapter as an excuse to stop reading it.

Once a week works okay provided it is a reasonable length and really is on a definite day every week.

Once every two weeks same again as per week.

Once a month, I will need to read the end of the previous chapter to remember who was doing what to whom and where they were doing it. Not a real problem if the story has me by the short and curlies.

Longer than that and I might just have to start again till I remember that I have read this before.

What about length of post. I have seen complaints to authors about it being too short as well as too long. (Keep your minds out of the gutter please).

The half page story that has no plot with the promise of more soon, just doesn't do it for me.

I read all of Codey's World Christmas collection of short stories over two nights, along with some others.

They were all good reading and of high quality in that I read them all and was entertained by them

I discovered Dan Kirk's "Dreams Of Humanity" and was hooked. I caught up the first 31 chapters over 2 nights and days. Whew!

I am guessing that because different people read at different speeds that we can only look at suggesting a minimum and a maximum posting length. The type of story will also influence the length.

I have done a bit of research to find that most posts at Nifty appear to be somewhere between 1000 words and 50.000 words.

The sample was taken over 5,348 files from mainly 4 different but popular Nifty categories sampled over a 3year period. So I think it is probably a reasonable sample base.

Statistics as you all know can be rigged to prove anything, in this case we are just looking for an indication of popular posting length in number of words per post.

Half of the samples were below 5000 words, with a size-able number in the range between 3000 and 7000 words. The higher word counts (over 15000) were not insignificant but did not dominate to the same degree that the lower (1500 -3000) counts did.

The mean file sizes occurred between 15Kb and 30Kb. in htm file type, corresponding to 2700 word and 5300 words, respectively.

Please note there might be other influences re htm and hidden words in these documents, but we are only looking for indicators here not trying to land on the moon.

The sample's text was copied and pasted into MS-Word 2003 and then a word count performed.

The files were then deleted. No further copying or distribution occurred. Copyright being respected.

If I were to hazard a guess on what all this means, I would say that around the 2500-3000 words represents a worthy but minimum post. Whilst 10,000 words seems a not impossible satisfactory length to read at the high end.

Over 15,000 words strikes me perhaps, as trying to hog the market so that the readers have insufficient time to read other stories.

Many people like to follow more than one story at a time.

Around 5000 words certainly seems a popular posting choice for many authors.

I suppose someone with better statistic skills than mine will have more to say about all this and I certainly make no claim to either an authoritative or definitive claim to accuracy in the above figures. Neither do I think we need them to be much better.

The summary here is that around 5000 words give or take up to 3000 words makes for a satisfactory post.

If possible I would say up to three posts per week would be satisfactory, with the longest period being two weeks between posting updates.

I note that some authors are very good at posting delay notices and apologies for delays in posting. This seems to me to be not only polite but respectful to their readers.

A pre-written and completed novel may well be able to handle the higher posting count for both author and reader. I know that there are a couple of authors, on the net, who offer to send a CD-ROM of their completed novel for a few dollars to readers who cannot wait for the postings. From what I gather this is not a way to make money.

Such is my little journey into the trivia of posting length and frequency of same.

Ps. This post is just under a 1000 words (that is 5086 characters according to the check post length box)

Edit: corrected Ps from characters to words. (sorry about that).

[Tanuki Racoon]

A small correction -- I'm usually a few chapter ahead of my editor, so you're not seeing the original, but a very careful edit of the original writing. I also have some beta-readers the un-edited stuff and will occasionally make a change to an earlier chapter as a consequence, but that's not common. If you like, it's a compromise situation -- I have several chapter drafted ahead of what's being posted and that allows me to make adjustments when needed.

This is how I generally did it with AWMS. Afterwards, I did it a bit differently. Not sure how I'll do future works since they'll be sporadic and very short.