We?re listening - Is Sally Kern?s son gay?

[JamesSavik]

From my blog 2/12/2008:

Hate has a bad rap. For generations the Christian church have sought to discourage it. Lately it has become politically incorrect.

Hate is one of the most basic and powerful emotions. It's also one of the most honest if you understand where it comes from.

In studying apes, our closest biological relatives, they have two basic emotions: yikes and goody. All the rest of their emotional states are somewhere in between. Goody we can all understand. It's the reaction to spending time with our mate, sex, our favorite food, physical comfort, etc.

Yikes is a response to a threat- either real or perceived. It is how apes respond to something that is unfamiliar or not understood. It evokes in apes a fight or flight reaction. Apes will either run from or confront something that frightens them. So we have Yikes changing into Anger. Does this sound at all familiar?

Human emotion is a lot more complex than apes. Apes don't know how to lie. Humans are adept at dishonesty- so much so that they often end up lying to themselves. What has happening in society is that social pressure is discouraging people from showing or voicing hate. On the surface this sounds like a good thing and I suppose that it is. Those that openly preach hate are viewed with suspicion and disgust.

The problem is that that hate doesn't really go away. It is internalized and carried around, political correctness be damned. It comes out in small doses while looking at employment applications, performance reviews, and a thousand other little ways where internalized hate can replace judgment.

Is this really better? I don't know. When we hear a hate preacher like Phelps, Hucklebee or Dobson carrying on like a baboon, at least its honest and we know where we stand-- even if we won't turn our back on them. Where things get really dangerous is when that internalized hate is concealed behind a smile and a warm handshake.

To me it is easier when the haters rave. You can protect yourself from the danger that you see. It takes a politically correct bigot that professes to love everybody to really hurt you.

IMHO: let the haters hate. I'll buy them t-shirts. It's never the snake that you see that bites you. It's always the snake in the grass.

[Cole Parker]

James, there's a cynicism there that I'd like to address.

Yes, men are capable of hate, and that hatred can be blind, and unalterable. Agreed.

But isn't it better if society lets the haters know that their view isn't the majority view any longer? That blind, corrosive hatred isn't the word of the day any longer? That their opinon, their hate, isn't universal, and certainly isn't a universal truth?

I think we've progressed as a nation, as a society, because we've addressed the underpinnings of some of the hatred that's been with us since our beginnings. Three of the biggies have been racial intolerance, sexual orientation intolerance and religious intolerance. It's only been relatively recently that these intolerances have been rejected in our schools, legally enjoined, and then discussed openly in classrooms. By doing this, we've opened the ears of kids to messages other than what their parents have said. We've taught that blind hatred is wrong. Prejudices are not so easily being passed from generation to generation because now a different message is being taught, and kids are hearing it. Not too many years ago, most kids ended up thinking like their parents did about race, orientation and religion. Today, many kids have rejected their parents' intolerance and seen their hatred for what it is. Seeing it, and undestanding they have a choice to make, many have turned away from it.

Yes, some people are going to hate, and it's better to know their views. But I think by addressing their hatred, talking about it, disecting it, and teaching kids that there are better ways, we've moved forward as a society.

Cole

[blue]

I'd rather have a friend like Tucker any day. -- And it is things like that, and the friendships I've gained, which are why I keep at it online at Codey's World and elsewhere.

I will admit I don't understand why so much human suffering happens. But I have seen and believe how a single hug or kind word can make up for it, at least for a moment, and can start healing.

If we pretend it's all about money or all about "thou shalt not," then we have missed the reason for a Golden Rule, or for any bonds of friendship or love. There comes a point where we have to care enough to reach out to someone else, instead of pushing them away because we think they're not good enough.

I have seen and heard what it is like to lose someone you love. I live with that almost every day. More, I have seen what it's like for a few friends, whose bodies and minds carry the scars forever, from something as common as being born or a traffic accident, or as terrible as a world event like a hurricane or a bombing.

Until you have tried to console someone when there's not enough consolation in this world, when no answer seems to be enough, and you find the answer is simply, love each other and hold on, and try to make things as much better as you can, then you haven't understood why love is stronger than hate.

[E.J.]

OK it's official, this woman is a loon (no offense meant to Loons or to any other birds)

Oklahoma Rep. Sally Kern, openly gay church pastor face off on television

by Nick Langewis

Story Link

Link to Video

Oklahoma House Rep. Sally Kern made an Easter Sunday appearance on KFOR-TV's "Flash Point" to face off with an openly gay pastor, elaborating on her recent leaked speech and defending her views.

A spirited theological and political debate ensued between Rep. Kern, host Kevin Ogle, panelists Burns Hargis and Mike Turpen, and Dr. Scott Jones of Oklahoma City's Cathedral of Hope.

"I was speaking to a group of Republicans; grassroots Republicans," Kern explained of the original speech, which gained worldwide attention after posted on the Internet by the Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund, "and I was talking about the homosexual agenda, and how they are out there putting forth--funding very heavily--homosexual and pro-homosexual candidates to run against, and defeat, conservatives across the nation.

"I did talk about what I believe...scientific evidence, health evidence...proves that the homosexual lifestyle is a dangerous lifestyle. And, yes, I did compare it to being more dangerous than terrorism. And my point in doing that, gentlemen, was this: Everybody knows terrorism destroys and tears down, and that was the only analogy I was making is that the homosexual agenda, this lifestyle which is so destructive to individuals, is at the heart trying to tear down what is the bedrock foundation of our society, which is the family and traditional marriage."

"You don't really believe that Scott," asks panelist Michael Turpen of Pastor Jones, "is more dangerous than Osama bin Laden, do you?"

"I believe that the...homosexual agenda, and the lifestyle that it involves, is deadly to this nation. Now, I was not saying that Scott here is personally as dangerous as Osama bin Laden, but I was just making a comparison to prove my point."

"Well, I would denounce hate speech of any kind," rebuts Jones, "and have in my public remarks in response to yours. And you have to understand that when you say that gay people are like cancer...and cancer is something that we eradicate; that we kill; or that we are worse than terrorists, and terrorists are people that we go after to annihilate, to kill, you have to understand why those words would outrage people, because what are you saying? That we should go after gay people and eradicate them or annihilate them?"

"I wasn't saying that you guys were a cancer," the legislator says to Dr. Jones. "I was saying that the effect is the very same as a cancer. If God's people do not stand up and proclaim God's word, which teaches that homosexuality is a sin; and if we try to just ignore it and let it become mainstream and take on the mentality that you folks want, that it's a normal lifestyle, then that is going to spread through our culture, and we will no longer have the same kind of culture we've had for over 200 years. That's all I meant."

"You have to understand," appeals Jones, "that there are multiple churches, Christians, denominations, highly respected scholars who disagree with your interpretation and application of scripture."

"Sally," asks Turpen, "if you had a gay child--"

"--I would love them as much as anybody else," Rep. Kern answers. "I would love them more than any of my other children because they would have a greater need."

Kern also weighs in on her son, answering allegations that he was gay based on a 1989 arrest of a Jesse Jacob Kern on oral sodomy charges.

"In 1989, my Jesse Aaron Kern was 12 years old, and we lived in Boise, Idaho. He has never been arrested, and he has been interviewed, and he has said, 'I am not...I am straight!'"

"But if he were, I'd love him," she continues, "because God created us all in his image, OK? God has a wonderful plan for every single one of us. Sin is out to destroy God's plan for our lives."

"How could you love a gay son," asks Turpen, "that you have said is more dangerous to this country...than a terrorist?"

"I said the 'homosexual agenda,'" counters Kern. "I was not talking about--I have worked with other individuals who are homosexual. I don't hate them. I have never been rude to them."

Dr. Jones takes exceptional issue with Kern's lecturing on gays' involvement in the political process. Jones finds that it makes the lawmaker's comments "more outrageous" because he contends that she, as an elected official, is essentially labeling a certain group of people participating in the democratic process as worse than terrorists.

"The agenda is worse than terrorists," Kern counters.

"It is never dangerous for any of our citizens to engage in the democratic process," she adds. "I wish more of them would. What I'm saying is: their agenda, what they want to put upon the American people, which have for years been considered a 'Christian nation,' who had a moral basis, where people knew what right and wrong was; where people knew that this was considered sin and this was not considered sin--"

Jones interjects: "--So a group of people advocating for their equal civil and human rights is more dangerous to this country--"

"If a person is born black, they can't change that," Kern explains. "You see, that's the heart of this issue is the homosexuals believe they're born that way. No medical research--"

"--Even Al Mohler, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has agreed that all science is leading toward the idea that we are born that way."

"I disagree with that wholeheartedly," Kern says. "We're all born with a sinful nature. I'm just as sinful as anybody else in this world."

"The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association all disagree with you, ma'am," Jones responds, "and they're the people I would respect as having a mainstream view, and yours is in an extreme view."

"Mine is not an extreme view," counters Kern. "Mine is the view of the average American citizen, and I disagree with you."

"Why would somebody choose to be gay?" asks Turpen.

"Because of that sinful nature," Kern responds. "We can all choose to be whatever we want to be. You know, there are some people who have a propensity to have...a violent temper, and they have to learn to control that. They can't go out and say 'that's my propensity to be angry, so I'm going to engage in all the violence I want to.'"

Copyright ? 2007 Page One News Media, Inc.

[JamesSavik]

I think we've progressed as a nation, as a society, because we've addressed the underpinnings of some of the hatred that's been with us since our beginnings. Three of the biggies have been racial intolerance, sexual orientation intolerance and religious intolerance.

Have we really or have people merely learned to keep their mouth shut? I think that all of the same BS is still there under the surface. People have been conditioned to keep their prejudices to themselves.

Sally Kern's said that she was talking to a group of republicans (as if that made it OK).

A group of republicans: talk about your primate behavior models. One elder baboon barks and frightens the tribe so they all bark...

[R.J.]

I don't think anything is going to happen unless everybody changes from seeing the worst in their neighbors, and I'm not just talking about America.

Rad

[DesDownunder]

..."--Even Al Mohler, the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has agreed that all science is leading toward the idea that we are born that way."

"I disagree with that wholeheartedly," Kern says. "We're all born with a sinful nature. I'm just as sinful as anybody else in this world."

"The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association all disagree with you, ma'am," Jones responds, "and they're the people I would respect as having a mainstream view, and yours is in an extreme view."

"Mine is not an extreme view," counters Kern. "Mine is the view of the average American citizen, and I disagree with you."

"Why would somebody choose to be gay?" asks Turpen.

"Because of that sinful nature," Kern responds. "We can all choose to be whatever we want to be. You know, there are some people who have a propensity to have...a violent temper, and they have to learn to control that. They can't go out and say 'that's my propensity to be angry, so I'm going to engage in all the violence I want to.'"

Copyright ? 2007 Page One News Media, Inc.

There, in that word, "sinful"; in that phrase "We're all born with a sinful nature." is the social context that has influenced our societies ever since some prehistoric ancestor misconstrued joy as feeling guilty for being alive and set about convincing others to feel the same way.

Being alive is not something of which we should or need to feel ashamed.

Don't misunderstand this. Not being ashamed for living is not an excuse for causing harm.

Kern and her ilk would have us believe feeling guilty for our 'sinful nature' will allow us to control it.

Furthermore they would have us believe that the 'sinful nature' is the source of freedom of choice.

But how can something that is in its nature, sinful, also enable us to choose to be good?

It can't.

What she is really saying, (and probably with out being fully aware of it) is, that imposing guilt on people by claiming that human nature is sinful, enables people to be controlled.

In the case of Humanity versus Kern and company however, 'sinful nature' as she calls it, is not a defense for controlling people through guilt. Imposing such guilt complexes on individuals and cultures is itself a crime against humanity. In my opinion that is a self evident truth.

While at the very least, I think, science can show a gene that sets a condition for propensity to homosexuality, I know of no such hereditary disposition towards a 'sinful nature'.The sin gene has yet to be shown as having any indication of existence.

It also would be irrational as sin is defined in reference to religious laws.

Freedom of choice then, cannot not be granted by a sinful nature, though perhaps a sin might be committed because we have freedom of choice. That is another discussion altogether different to what Kern is pursuing. (I guess we need rational analysis to be taught in schools.)

Therefore, a 'sinful nature' cannot be the source of our ability to choose "whatever we want to be."

I will say however that Kern has the ability to almost, make me lose my temper.

In the meantime forget this woman and join me in celebrating the joys of living.

[Cole Parker]

As usual, Des, your logic is impeccable, your writing is captivating, and you've convinced me. She's certainly as ass.

Too bad we can't arrange a debate between the two of you.

Of course, debating with someone to whom logic is merely another word for sinful (and she's got a lot of such words) could be very vexing.

I'd ask if you were up to it, but you keep convincing me that you're up for most anytihng.

C

[Trab]

You cannot effectively debate logically with the illogical. Unless the desired result of the 'debate' is hoped to be apoplexy in one party or the other, I suggest letting her debate herself. At least that way she won't have any overwhelmingly intelligent arguments to deal with.

[DesDownunder]

Thanks Cole,

I had to really work on that one. I am slowing down with age.

And Trab you are correct, arguing with the logical mind is something she wouldn't have to do if she was debating with herself.

I have seen these people in debate locally. One woman when cornered by a fellow of great intellect and logic, astounded him with her reply to his discourse on the reality of God.

"Tell me dear," she said, "where does the sweet Lord Jesus sit in your heart."

The poor man just walked away saying "I give up, you can't talk to her."

I think there is not much point in debating them, but a lot of good in trying to reveal their faulty logic for others to see.

[JamesSavik]

"Why would somebody choose to be gay?" asks Turpen.

"Because of that sinful nature," Kern responds. "We can all choose to be whatever we want to be. You know, there are some people who have a propensity to have...a violent temper, and they have to learn to control that. They can't go out and say 'that's my propensity to be angry, so I'm going to engage in all the violence I want to.'"

This is why I hate arguing with religious fools. Their whole reality is invested in religion and they can't see anything other than black & white. I'm surprised that MS Kerns didn't suggest adding homosexuals to the sex offender registry. That is what is on the minds of many social conservatives.

Too choose to be gay would be one of the most foolish choices anyone could possibly make. Such a choice would possibly put you at odds with family and friends and certianly put you att odds with powerful segments of society (religious and/or social conservative), set yourself up for a quiet sort of discrimination, miss out on oppertunities, and face life as a second class citizen who only has the civil rights that they can afford.

To tell me that I chose to be gay is like telling me that I asked for years of abuse, 7 broken bones, 20 concussions and a raging case of PTSD so bad that I can't even sleep in the same bed with a lover. Why would I do that?

Telling me that I chose to be gay is like telling me that I'm stupid/foolish/idiotic.

Telling me that I chose to be gay is like asking me to kick your stupid @ss because I did nothing of the sort. I was doing it before I even knew what it was called. Maybe if someone had told me that homosexuality makes ordinary people into insane mosters, I might have stayed in the closet long enough to get the hell out of this redneck town.

[E.J.]

Certified Cameronite: Sally Kern

Jim Burroway, Box Turtle Bulletin

March 29th, 2008

One thing you can say about Oklahoma State Rep. Sally Kern is this: She doesn?t give up. And the more she talks, the more she embarrasses herself and the good citizens of Oklahoma?s District 84. Today, the Bethany Tribune published a letter to the editor (A permanent copy is available here as PDF.) Kern?s letter contains the usual misinformation from the usual sources.

Kern?s very first paragraph cites a study titled, ?The Lifespan of Homosexuals,? immediately following a sentence which references the CDC. The way it?s written, casual readers may assume that ?The Lifespan of Homosexuals? was a CDC study, but they?d be wrong. That so-called ?study? is actually from none other than Paul Cameron, the discredited ?researcher? who has been censured and/or kicked out of virtually every professional association he?s ever been associated with for repeated ethics violations and gross professional misconduct. Most recently, he was censured by the president of the Eastern Psychological Association for misrepresenting his participating at their 2007 conference. In 1999, Paul Cameron wrote ?Gays in Nazi Germany,? in which he whitewashed the treatment of gays in Nazi concentration camps, and he has advocated similar draconian measures throughout his career here in the U.S.

Oklahoma State Sen. Sally KernSally Kern will reach for anything to demonize gay and lesbian citizens of her district and beyond, including the rantings of a Nazi sympathizer and holocaust revisionist. We first awarded Kern the LaBarbera Award for her outrageous fear-mongering comments, saying that gays were ?the biggest threat our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam.? As a Certified Cameronite, Kern has completed her own evolution to the lowest depths of extremist rhetoric. She now joins the ranks of so many others who care neither for the truth, ethics, or simple human decency in their zeal to render LGBT citizens as second class ? or worse.

? Box Turtle Bulletin

[The Pecman]

The sound you hear is my head thumping against the monitor.

God, I hate reading crap like this woman's speech. Somebody, please hit her in the face with a lemon creme pie.

[The Pecman]

To choose to be gay would be one of the most foolish choices anyone could possibly make. Such a choice would possibly put you at odds with family and friends and certianly put you att odds with powerful segments of society...

That begs the question: if we could choose to be straight or gay, which would we choose?

The problem with that question, for me, is that being gay is so ingrained with who I am, I can't imagine not being gay. Anytime I've ever fantasized about being different -- taller, better looking, born in a different century, etc. -- being gay wasn't something I would change.

I know that being straight is far more accepted, and is (relatively speaking) an easier life overall for most people. But I'm not sure I would have chosen a different path, even if I could have. As far as I'm concerned, it's like skin color: we're born with it, and we gotta live with it.

[Trab]

While I can acknowledge Pecman's point, I don't fully agree with the last part. I don't think a physical attribute, like skin color, or even height, number of legs, or whatever really is the real YOU. That, I feel, is reserved for what is inside your head, your mind, your 'soul'. Being gay is inside you, it IS you. You cannot change it. You can dye skin, hair, chop off limbs, and it doesn't change your inner being. So, I agree that I cannot imagine being straight, except as an intellectual exercise.