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Guest rusticmonk86

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Age and experience is not a valid argument. Age doesn?t always imply wisdom. Age, too often, only hardens beliefs and positions that have not worked in the past but are clung to because they were the only examples we had as youths. If we keep trying this it might work someday.

Decisions based on past experience aren?t necessarily correct either. Bad experiences tend to breed bad decisions if we don?t correctly analyze and learn from those experiences.

I don?t think Gabe?s original post was militant. It was a fair assessment of what we are shown. I am against violence but I don?t consider defensive militancy as violence. We are attacked, both verbally and physically, but the people we should be able to turn to for assistance turn their heads and say it?s our own fault because we refuse to live a lie. That we should hide in self imposed shame until the next generation comes along to fight for us. That?s really a great example.

Gay youths are being forced to come out in greater numbers all the time and it?s not because of the examples set for us by the generations that preceded us. We have no such examples to show us that, yes, we can have a future to look forward to. That, in spite of the prejudice and bigotry, we do have a place in this world.

We have no examples and so we have to be our own examples. We are examples to both the straight kids and the gay kids and we are making a difference. All the gay clubs in schools were not started by adults. The Mailcrew guys were 16 and 17 years old when they saw a need and filled it. Why hadn?t the adults seen that need already? Maybe they did but were too afraid to crawl out of their self imposed exiles and work for the common good. I hate to say it but I get the impression that our older generations are mostly trying to cover their own butts and everyone else be damned.

We are tired of being lectured with out showing us alternatives. We are tired of being talked at instead of talked to. Our age doesn?t mean we?re wrong. We know first hand what lies in store for us during this fight, many of us from personal experience.

I too see this as a war but we kids are forced into fighting two wars at once. We not only have to fight for our rights as gays with the straight world but we also have to fight the older generations of gays for the weapons we need to be able to successfully wage the main war. We need happy(?) gay examples living a mostly fulfilling and open life. We need people to point to and say ?see?.we?re not evil monsters lurking in the shadows to corrupt your children.? Unfortunately the examples we are able to point to are faceless and intangible. When asked to show them that we aren?t evil monsters we can only say that we can?t because they are lurking in the shadows out of fear.

If I were living in a snake pit I would be a blur leaving it in my wake. Sure moving to a place where there was a better acceptance of me would be a major hassle. If having a chance to live an open and positive life and gaining and imparting a feeling of self worth isn?t worth a few months or longer of disruption, then is there anything to fight for at all?

Drake?.I like the quote you use as a signature, but there are too many people willing to hide and not even try to light a candle?.not only that, but they are actively trying to blow out the candles we kids are trying to light. This brings a common saying to mind.

?With friends like these, who needs enemies??

Codey

Ps; I?m sorry I don?t have the skill with words that you guys have. I know I have a hard time getting my points across. Maybe age and experience will come in handy so that I?ll be better able to express my self.

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All issues of war analogies asside, I'd like to touch back on the first issue - role models.

I can honestly say that I can't picture an appropriate time for someone to walk up to a group of kids and say "Hey! I like guys...but that is only one of my many interests. I also enjoy carrying a briefcase, collecting staplers, playing that game where you roll the metal loop down the street with a stick..." (Yeah, that's right, I'm out of touch with the elders.)

But...do kids really need gay role models? As one of "the kids" (or one of the younger guys, at least), I'm going to say no, not really. Everyone always says things like "Gay or straight, it doesn't matter - you're still the same person you always were". I'd like to think that if some different switches were hit and I had ended up straight, I'd be the same person I am today. So why throw so much weight on the issue? Isn't that just giving it more power, saying "Yes, we really are that different"?

A male kid can have female role models. A white kid can have black role models. An athiest kid can have theist role models. A poor kid can have rich role models. Is sexual orientation, that one little thing that we always say doesn't make us any different, really bigger than race, sex, religion, and socioeconomic standing put together? Instead of looking so desperately to find some other gay guy to point to and say "Look, he's normal, isn't he?", we should be able to point to ourselves and say "You know who I am. I know who I am. That's enough."

Oh, and in keeping with the tradition of ending posts with quotes...

"I am what I am, and that's all that I am. Ugg ugg ugg ugg ugg ugg ugg, spinachk."

-Popeye the Sailor Man, a straight role model

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Ele, You are saying what I am. No it shouldn't be a big deal but until we can convince the straight world that, we need people living the truth and not hiding. It's the hiding that makes it a big deal. I never walk up to someone and tell them I'm gay...no one should consider their gayness or straightness to be the major factor in their lives. I have been out since i was 13 and don't hide it but don't back away from it either. But if asked I tell the truth. I don't "appear" or "act gay" and don't wear my orientatation on my sleeve but make no effort to hide it either.

As for popeye being a straight role model I've always had a suspicion that he was a little to interested in Wimpys buns......hamburger of course :lol:

Codey

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I don't "appear" or "act gay" and don't wear my orientatation on my sleeve but make no effort to hide it either.

And there's the problem with finding gay role models. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who are out of the closet but don't look or act stereotypically gay, but since they don't act like it or advertise it, who's going to know? It's not really something that you just go around asking people. Chances are, most of the closeted guys would still act the same way even if they were out of the closet, so they wouldn't serve as major examples to society, either - so you can't really blame the lack of examples on them.

As for popeye being a straight role model I've always had a suspicion that he was a little to interested in Wimpys buns......hamburger of course :lol:

Well, he did kiss Bluto once, but that was while he was asleep and dreaming about Olive Oil, so it doesn't really count...

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Thank you, everyone!

The discussion above is excellent, with a lot of very valid and thought-provoking views expressed.

In the interest of providing "older" role models, I'll name some of the people who I described in my earlier post. I am not outting any of these, as their sexual orientation is a matter of public record:

Justice Michael Kirby: High Court of Australia (Australia's equivalent of the Supreme Court in the USA)

The following site is an Australian Christian web site who are opposed to many of the issues we are in favour of. They have a special section just for Justice Michael Kirby. I quickly reviewed some of the things on the site, and it does not seem to be extreme, but merely having a considered difference of opinion. It's interesting to view things from the "other sides" perspective.

http://www.saltshakers.org.au/html/P/9/B/198/

Dr. Kerryn Phelps: Past president of the Australian Medical Association

Unfortunately, I can't quickly find a web site that contains details of her life with her partner, Jackie Stricker. I think part of the problem is that they have published a book Kerryn & Jackie which means that most of the material is not available "free" on the Internet.

The following article from the Sydney Morning Herald (a mainstream paper) is part of the media blitz for the book publication. However, it contains interesting details of their life, and Dr. Phelp's previous marriage. You may need to register to view it, but it's a free registration.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/12/...4222636940.html

Senator Bob Brown: Leader of the Australian Green's (a minority political party, but one that is gaining in strength)

Again, it was hard to find much about Bob Brown and his partner Paul Thomas, as they tend to be private individuals. Senator Bob Brown does have a positive voting record in the Australian senate on homosexual rights, but does not have a lot of influence in this area. His main passion has always been environmental issues.

I found another Sydney Morning Herald article that mentions some of his history, include some of the struggles he endued to accept his sexuality. For the education of the younger generation, this sort of things was not uncommon, prior to the internet. Without the ability to communicate with your peers in a safe, non-threatening way, you felt very much alone.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/30/...6527861329.html

Are these the sorts of people that you are looking for as role models?

Graeme

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This is Aaron, for The Mail Crew. It is so awesome to see a thread like this. When we read Gabe's opening comments we were like, "Go, Gabe! You rock!" Then the replies started coming in, and then we were at the point of, "Go, Drake! You rock!" Then we came to, "Go, Codey! You rock!" Then everyone who has responded "rocked".

I think I've just said that this thread is giving us a lot to think about. We get e-mail from around the country (and the globe), and we're learning from kids in all areas. Some kids thank us for being good role models, but few have complained about not having gay role models. They do express a distaste for the "in-your-face," flambouyant types that Codey mentioned, and they definitely don't see those people as gay role models. We like EleCivil's comments about role models. We're just living our lives, not playing roles. Good examples are always welcome, though.

Gabe asked: "If you're a kid: Do you look up to the other gay people to see what's normal and how you should act?" In my case, when I was 13 I started to act like the stereotypical limp-wrist. That was because I knew only two gay kids, and they are just naturally effiminate. It will always be their nature. I thought I had to act that way, too, knowing my sexual orientation. Thanks to Trey and Eric of our crew (for starters) I learned differently, and dropped the act. I fear, though, that other gay kids are doing what I tried, just to feel like they're not alone. We do need more non-stereotypical gay kids and elders to guide them by example, wherever possible.

We're fortunate to live in an area that is tolerant, probably because it's a rather isolated community near a large city, the little community comprised of affluent, well-educated people. We realize that if we lived in a different area, we probably would have had a much harder time starting that first e-mail group. (Codey, we were 14-16 then.) The idea spread to other schools and other states, and gave birth to our website.

Gabe asked us about a month ago if we purposely stay under the radar. We explained to him that we do that because of promises to our protective parents. But, really, there's a good reason for staying under the radar that is not mainly safety-oriented. We're encouraging kids to start e-mail groups in their schools to get to know some of the non-stereotypical gay and lesbian students like themselves. There are lots of them, and they need local peer support, and if that support is under the radar they feel more comfortable. We in no way disparage the naturally effeminate gay guys or masculine gay girls; we just know they're a small portion of the whole picture.

Trey's grandfather was born in 1941. He tells us that when he was a teen the word 'gay' wasn't associated with sexual orientation. He first heard the word used to refer to homosexuals when he was in college, starting in 1959. He says that homosexuals were "tolerated" in his teen and young adult years, and usually just thought of as being different. They were not targets of hate or abuse. But then came the standoff at the Stonewall Inn. That has been touted my some as a wonderful step forward. Was it, though, the beginning of the anti-gay backlash? The real beginning of homophobia as we know it today? Would the general population more comfortably accept us if they didn't paint the entire GLBT community as rainbow flag-waving, parading radicals? Just some rhetorical questions, not an attempt to stir up controversy or rain on anyone's parade.

I'm rambling, and the guys are throwing ideas at me from all sides. We've spent a part of this school holiday reading and discussing this thread. This is Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. When we're older, will there be a Gabriel Duncan Day? A Drake Hunter Day? A national holiday that celebrates a successful movement to bring equal rights to those of us who are different in one small part of our total being? Probably not. We're not marked by skin color as being different, so we're hard to spot, unless we fit the stereotypes. Most of us don't, and don't want to.

We see good and valid points on both sides of the "war" debate in this thread. Our heads are spinning from all of this. We appreciate all of the posts. You've made us think.

We're so excited about this thread that we've linked to it from the News/Updates page of our website. We wish all teens would read this thread.

Looking forward to more responses,

Aaron, for The Mail Crew

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Thanks, guys. It's good to know the discussion was just lively, instead of overheated at the boiling point. Maybe I was overly sensitive too. -- This discussion has been one of the best I've seen around here, raucousness and all. Good job, guys.

Stories, such as those written by the authors at this site, help educate and increase morale of those who are in the trenches.

Yes. -- And for a great many, those stories may be the first evidence they see that other gay people want the same, very simple, things they do: love, friendship, acceptance, belonging, and equality in law and in society. Why? Because they don't know enough (or any) other gay people, and because they are coming to terms with themselves.

Gay role models -- hmm, but it's hard to tell who's gay and who isn't, after all, and ideally, someone who's a gay role model is out, but it's not an issue, so for both those reasons, they may not be immediately obvious. But let me set that aside for now.

There is a basic problem, and it is both cause and effect of the problem we're discussing. It's already been raised here, by Codey and EleCivil. In fact, it's one of the basic "story conflicts" behind most "gay stories." Here it is. (Yes, it could be guys or girls. It's just that most of the members here are male.)

A guy meets another guy. After some time, one guy likes the other one. Conflict: Will the other guy like him? How can he let his friend know that he likes him, as more than a friend?

Or here's another common situation:

A guy is in a new situation, such as a new job or moving somewhere or meeting new people. How and when does he tell them, and does he need to say anything, that he is gay?

Or another:

A guy wants to come out. He has relatives and friends and co-workers, everyone in his life. Whom will he tell and how?

-- None of those are unfamiliar. Each and every time, it's a new set of people and circumstances. It's coming out again every time, even if you've been "out" for years.

That is what we're dealing with, the most basic, first element (aside from self-acceptance, that is). Yes, it should be no problem. It should be just as easy for me to walk up to some guy at a party (or anywhere) and say, "Hi, I like you, and thought I'd introduce myself. I'd like to get to know you better." In other words, the same things straight guys do to meet girls who are interested, the same freedom to do that. We all know that it isn't so easy. (That is just meeting each other, not asking to make love.)

Doesn't that go beyond even role models? Sure, we need examples of successful relationships and successfully out people living regular lives, in order for society to reach that piont, where it isn't any different for a guy to ask another guy than it is for a guy to ask a girl. But what I'm suggesting is that it is an individual occurrence, each time, and so everyone must be a role model. -- Oh, that sounds trite. :: hangs head ::

Now about which generation, or whose responsibility it is:

From what I was just saying, it is each person's responsibility to set that eample in whatever way he or she can. I can talk about my past experiences, but I've realized two things.

One, I have been doing that, but it keeps coming out (sorry for the pun) as "oh, poor me," and that isn't helpful to me or you all, and it isn't really me, except the part of me that is least secure, and needs to change and grow up. Er, sorry for the digression. You may have noticed I write posts off the cuff, stream of consciousness. Can I help it if my stream gets clogged? (I heard that! No, I don't have *that* problem, thanks. :grin: )

Two, what relevance, really, do my past experiences have to today's youth? Some, maybe. But there was no web, there were no gay-straight alliances that I know of; heck, I'd never heard of AIDS, and I don't think most of my friends had either. It is a different world, a slightly different culture, than when I grew up. Sure, a lot is just the same. Heck, a lot is just the same in Australia or England, from what I read.

About the MailCrew: I wonder what would have happened if a guy had stood up on a bus when I went to high school, and said that yes, he was gay, and did anybody have a problem with that. I do at least know that there were concerned students when I went. I wasn't the only one to support friends. (Damn. I just realized, I never tried to talk to them either. Ugh, I'm such a goof.) Water under the bridge.

We are seeing change. We'll see more.

And people my age and older or younger -- we aren't going away, and we aren't sitting doing nothing. (I'm typing like crazy, see?) I'm doing more than just typing. So are a lot of us, whether we are Dude or Gabe or some guys in junior or senior high...or some doofus called Blue.

Maybe you've noticed already, it's not the first time I've said it.

My name is Ben W.; Blue is just a forum name.

I'd be amazed (and maybe pleased) if anyone knew / knows me.

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Blink. :lol: It's nice to think we're in a link. :D

Glad to know we rock, it's much better than rocks in our heads! :lol:

One slight point: The Stonewall demonstrations were because the police had cracked down so hard and unfairly on people at the Stonewall. People got so incensed that they demonstrated, and it grew. Note that what they did started peacefully, in civil protest.

In my state, the "sodomy laws" outlawing any homosexual activity, even in private, although somewhat overlooked in practice, were only repealed after a very public case less than two (or one?) year ago. At the time of the last election, a "gay marriage amendment" to the state constitution was discused.

I think I've already said that the senior high I graduated from, with over 500 in my graduating class back then, only "allowed" a Gay-Straight Alliance less than two years ago, and only after over two years of trying. Other schools were trying and also denied, throughout the state. As of January 2003, when a court case was decided that required GSA's and other groups to be allowed on campuses, there were only four GSA's found for an article in the city newspaper, out of at least five of the city's multiple school districts. This is for one of the largest cities in the nation. This is how far we all have to go. GRRR. It makes me mad.

Keep up the good work, wherever you are. Someday it will pay off. -- We have a dream that one day, all people will be accepted for being themselves.

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I think I've confused some of you by what I mean as a role model.....I don't mean a hero. I have heros and their sexual orientation isn't important to me. What I mean by a role model is someone living openly and happily with his or her partner. I don't need to see two men or women living together behind a facade of 'best friends' or 'roommates'. I don't expect them to make a point of telling everyone that they're gay. It won't help to know your doctor is gay and in a stable relationship? You're right but it will help the confused kids in his neighborhood or the homophobic people that live around him, to see a stable and loving relationship. The Mailcrew works one kid or one school at a time. And it's working. Aaorn...whether you want to admit it or not you guys are good role models and doing it the same way I'm trying. Just living a normal life and going about your dailey business as best you can. You don't need to shout your orientation from a rooftop to make it clear.

The only person I've ever just came right out and told I'm gay, except for the people who've asked, is Gramps. When Im talking to someone I've met, and they ask if I have a girlfriend I say no but I have a great boyfriend. Sometimes I'm called a dirty name and sometimes they'll just walk away. But enough times to make it worth it , they'll just tell me I don't look gay and that gives me the opening to talk to them about how the stereotypes of us they see aren't who the majority of us are. I've met some real buttheads this way but more important to me, I've met some good friends and hopefully have shed a better light on all gays.

Times are changing and things are improving for us but we need more people putting a correct face on gays or it'll take another couple thousand years to win acceptance. I don't want my kids growing up in a world like that!! (Yes Champ and I intend to raise a family!!)

Codey

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lets see, my first post here............. :lol:

i was recently fired from my job, i got a bullshit excuse, and that was good enough for them. i was told thru the grapevine a few days later, my orientation was the clincher. do i care? nope. i'm glad to be out of there, the timing just sucks.

i was out to most of the people at work then, it was a non-issue with them, or so i was told. i'm out to my family, again, it's a non issue even before we talked about it.

have i experianced any bashing or anything? nope. i'm kinda out of the closet, but looking at me, you couldn't tell. a few people here know me, and i met a couple of ya.

i'm not one to write epic posts, i usually get to the point. i guess it depends how "out" you are when the B.S. is floating around, how you deal with it. i guess i was just lucky.

ok, how did that come off as? :?

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cky.

ok, how did that come off as? :?

Blue!!! He did a no no.....go get him bro :lol:

Glad you're here Jeff and I still think you should open your own shop and put the bitch out of business :lol:

Codey

ps; Don't mix up your 'i's and 'e's or Blue will smack your hand...of course if you enjoy that sort of thing feel free :lol:

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I've talked some about role models, and I lack much experience being out, so I'm going to let others speak on that.

Welcome, LugNutz. I hadn't heard the news, man, sorry I was out of the loop. Bad timing. But it could lead to better things all around.

-----

LOL, I try not to correct people's posts, unless they ask or it's a good chance for humor... or unless I just feel like it. :shrugs: -- 'Sides, it'd get on folks' nerves, and that's not healthy for anybody. (Me included, lol.)

I'm a pussykat, huh? I dunno beans about car maint., since I don't drive, so it's best to stay on LugNutz' good side. :D

Just be your usual nutty self, LugNutz, and you'll be fine. You'll get the hang of it around here, if you haven't already, from lurking.

Nice friendly bunch, they all like to read, write, and/or edit. -- Yeah, that's right, we're all crazy, we can read! :lol:

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Age and experience is not a valid argument. Age doesn?t always imply wisdom. Age, too often, only hardens beliefs and positions that have not worked in the past but are clung to because they were the only examples we had as youths. If we keep trying this it might work someday.

Decisions based on past experience aren?t necessarily correct either. Bad experiences tend to breed bad decisions if we don?t correctly analyze and learn from those experiences.

In a vain attempt to keep this thread on topic....

You are correct in that age and experience is not a valid argument. It is not an invalid argument either. As with most short statements, there are so many unwritten qualifications that need to surround it.

Throughout history, most advances are made by the young, as they have the freshness to view things in new ways, without the "experience" to tell them that what's not possible. Equally, though, most of those advances come amongst a lot of failures, because much of the "experience" of the aged is valid.

As you grow older, your combined experiences allow you to perceive a richness that you may not have noticed earlier.

For example, through more experiences than I care to recall (none of which have anything to do with homosexuality) I have learnt that very few things are black and white.

I will give a simple, hypothetical example. I am now, at long last, ready to out myself to world (that part is not hypothetical -- I am). Suppose I worked for the company that Drake used to work for. If I outted myself, there is a good chance that they would find an excuse to fire me.

What would that mean to me? I have a wife and two pre-school children to support. I have a mortgage on my house that requires the salary I'm currently being paid to keep the bank happy. My wife is currently unable to work because of the demands of looking after the children (childcare costs here would mean that if she went back to work, we'd probably be worse off than we are now).

If I was fired, for any reason, we would definitely lose the family home. This would put a strain on a relationship that almost reached breaking point when I came out to my wife. I would run a serious risk of losing my wife and kids (I don't think I would, but it may happen).

So, for me, I have what I consider to very valid reasons for not outting myself to the world.

If my circumstances were simplier, things would be different. However, this is real-life. Many others will also have personal reasons that they find sufficient to justify not outting themselves. Are these reasons valid? Well, I've given you some of mine. I'll leave you to judge for yourself if they are valid. I won't judge anyone else's.

So, how can I be a role-model if I'm not willing to out myself?

Well, for one thing, I am out to my wife and her family. My wife and I discuss "gay issues" practically every night, as I fill her in on the activities on these boards. On these boards, I am trying to be as honest as I can, only reserving enough information that would allow me to be identified.

I have been asked several times about the subject of being married, and I am willing to repeat as many times as it takes my views on the subject. I am not willing to have anyone else go through what my wife and I have experienced if it can be avoided. I'm often asked if the children made it all worthwhile. If you check out the link to the article from the Sydney Morning Herald that I posted earlier concerning Dr. Kerryn Phelps, you will find that while her son from her first marriage is comfortable with his mum and partner, she is estranged from her daughter. This is just one of the risks that occurs in these types of relationships.

I am willing to discuss issues, and will generally try to provide intelligent comment on them (no laughing please...). My opinion can be changed; it is not set in concrete (though sometimes it seems like that). I have the "advantage" that I live outside of the USA. This means I can have a more dispassionate view on topics, though at the expense of a lack of ground-level knowledge.

Through the stories I write, I try to educate and challenge the reader. I like to try to make them push their boundaries and view things differently.

These are the things I'm offering as an "elder" member. I may not be the ideal "role model" you are looking for, but it is the best I can offer.

I'll finish with some common sense training I received once. One view of personalities divides them by the axis's of introverted->extroverted and task-oriented->people-oriented. This divides into basically four groups. Each of those groups have their own strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I am introverted and task-oriented, though when I'm comfortable, I can be extroverted (like on these message boards).

It is easier for an extroverted, people-oriented person to be a comfortable "out" person in today's society, than an introverted, task-oriented person. This is just an attribute of personality that the people concerned have no control over.

That's enough from me for now....

Graeme

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No Graeme....you're exactly the kind of role model we need. As I said before in this thread or another ( I can't remember much since my last birthday...I must be getting senile :) ), it's not important who you love but how you love.. You are a gay man who happens to love and be true to his wife and family. Despite what you've been going thru you are trying your best to maintain a stable homelife. That's what we need to see..not the bed hopping partner swapping hedonists.

As far as you being out you are out to the people who matter the most to you and you do have to take into consideration the two boys. Not everyone can come out and I know that and so does Gabe. However most gays don't have the obligations you have and the impact on their lives would be much less.

You are a great example proving we aren't all promiscious and can be faithful to who we love whether it be a woman or a man.

Codey

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Thanks, Codey :oops:

I should point out that anyone with a mortgage is going to be in a similar position -- losing your job means you run a real risk of losing your house as well.

After saying earlier that I wanted to try to keep the thread on topic, I'm now going to try to divert it... :roll:

You are a great example proving we aren't all promiscious and can be faithful to who we love whether it be a woman or a man.

What ever made you think that all, or even a majority of gays are promiscuous?

This is not a facetious question, though I should warn you that anything you say may and probably will be incorporated into a story of my choosing... :D (I was requested by my editor sometime ago to discuss this issue in one of my stories, and I intend to do so at sometime in the near future). I have my own views on why this is so, but I'm interesting in what other people think.

Graeme

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I really don't understand the strong need for role models, at least in the way they many here have said are the types they are looking for. Like Cody said "someone living openly and happily with his or her partner". There are many out there I'm sure, its just that they just live there lives and and are not flashing it in peoples faces.

But even if there was a well known gay, that was manor and well liked would it really help? People are ignorant, and many just buy into stereotypes. There are a lot of black role models and what do we always here from these assholes "He speaks so well", "He acts white". You ask people whats the first thing that comes to their head when you say Jew, Mexican, Polish, Irish and I would bet anything a good number say something along the lines of cheap, lazy, stupid, and drunk. Because that?s what they are know and its even what they see in TVs and movies. So having one good gay role model will not change peoples thinking and maybe it would easier on gay teens in the way of knowing there?s someone else out there, but I still don't see it making it easier for them to come out. The only hope is in the kids going through school now and them learning tolerance, and judging by some of the moron parents out there it could be along time before things change.

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Trying to hijack the thread Graeme? :wink:

I'd have to agree with Codey's observation based on having lived in LA for 15 years and now here in SF. Like any other trait or habit though, there is quite the spectrum of behavior. Also, I think the percentage of open relationships may be rather high when compared to straight ones. (No statistical info to support either assertion other than observation and anecdote.)

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We've sort of moved from the arena of coming out into another, far less pretty arena. It's an area of personal pet peeve, actually, which some of you have heard me spout about before...if so, i'm sure there's something good on tv...lol

My point is this: I've noticed a distinct lack of tolerance within the gay 'tribe' (if that's the terminology you'd like to use). One of the surprises that I encountered when i came out, lo those many years ago, was that i was naive enough to believe that being gay and out was enough reason to set aside prejudice and work and love and live in relative harmony. Turns out it ain't so.

Aaron touched on it, Codey specifically stated it, and even I alluded to it in my own post (which makes me as guilty of being a bigot as anybody). What is 'it'? The gay underclass: the queens, the 'out there' leathermen, the promiscuous, the cadre of the limp-wrists, the flamers. I've noticed, in recent years, that there is an overwhelming drive to assimilate in the gay community...This pervasive attitude that if we remake ourselves sufficently in the straight image, they'll overlook the fact that we like to go to bed with other men (or women, in the case of dykes).

I remember reading, several years ago, a response from a big conservative pundit to an article written by Andrew Sullivan, a gay man who was the editor of "The New Republic." For those who don't know, it's a conservative rag. He'd written a editorial about gay marriage and published it in the paper he edited years before it was en vogue to do so...the boy definitely has balls. But this conservative writer replied with something along the lines of "We love Andrew, really we do...But he's wrong now, and always will be wrong. Let's have him go play in the sandbox and have a really adult discussion." The point is, even when we play their game and espouse their causes, they never forget who we are.

In that drive to become 'acceptable' then, we tend to want to shed the members of our 'tribe' who won't allow us to get to close to the straight way of being--the fags, the queens, the faeries, etc. Those who choose to have multiple sex partners get lumped in there too, 'cause that's another bludgeon that's been used on us for a long time.

You want to be a tribe? ok. Then be a real tribe. "Nobody gets left behind, and nobody gets forgotten." That's what it means to be a tribe. The fact is, despite how 'straight acting' we may all be, we're not straight. And no matter how many kids we raise, or wedding bands we wear, or vows we exchange, those who hate us for that reason ain't gonna forget or forgive.

Those who express their sexuality differently than the 'straight acting' are no less members of the tribe, and cutting them off and leaving them behind in the drive for acceptance is an unacceptable compromise.

cheers!

aj

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There will be time to surf the forums after school or during lunch. School's for school. You never know when that stuff is going to come in handy. Trust me, stuff I never thought would matter wound up being important. OK, end of lecture. The teacher's talking....

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Blue...Ok daddy but it was to late this time. I promise to take your advise in the future....well most of the time maybe.

Ok...here goes. Graeme it would be an honor to have my ideas influence one of your stories, but, in this, I'm afraid I've once again failed to make my point clear. I don't think the majority of us are promiscuous or bed hoppers. I was stating a point of view held by most in the straight community. I have no problem with any version of gayness that isn't hurting anyone else and is morally responsible. By this I mean having safe sex and not transmitting diseases to others. I have no problem with the diverse versions of gayness in our tribe. I realize that their version of gayness is as innate to them as mine is to me and is no less valid or more valid.

My problem lies with, what seems to be, a "silent majority" (thank you President Nixon) among us, who, by hiding who they are, allow the straight world to classify and label all of us because of the examples they are shown. I cannot and will not condemn the people who are out in the open and living their lives the way that is natural to them. I offer my sincerest apologies to anyone who might have been hurt by my statements.

I think all of us would agree that we have no choice in whether we're gay or not. We do have a choice in the way we handle our gayness. If we choose to stay hidden and feel sorry for ourselves and choose to not actively work to change things, then we give up the right to bitch and complain about how things are. If you choose to live and hide behind your fears and are miserable, remember this, you are living the life you chose.

There are many risks in holding a mortgage, loss of your home because of accident, illness or layoff comes quickly to mind. Do you let these risks control your life or do face them and live with them? If financial lose and disruption are more important than being true to who you really are, then that's the choice you should make, but perhaps you should take a good hard look at the direction your life is headed and reevaluate your values and goals first though.

Thirdeye....You say you don't see a need for gay role models or examples. I'm having a hard time reconciling this statement with your earlier post. In it you said that your brother, who had been homophobic according to another post you did, had two good gay friends. Don't you think that these two gays were responsible, in part, for the change in your brothers thinking? Don't you think that they were not only an example to a straight guy but also gave you the courage to face your fears and begin your coming out? It's people like these two that I'm talking about when I say example or role model. Don't you think, that by denying the need for examples like them, you could be condemning some kid to the misery that you lived from the time you were eleven? Wouldn't you have been happier, even though you were still closeted, to see that there was hope for you when you were older by seeing an example like them much earlier in your life?

AJ....I hope I adequately addressed your concerns in my reply to Graeme. I do believe in a tribe or community, whatever you want to call it, and do want us all to advance together. To be honest, I hold great admiration for those, in what you call the "gay underclass", who have the courage to live their lives the way God made them. I don't consider them to be "underclass"....they are simply another face of gayness. I want my face of gayness to be represented too though. We all have to realize that the gay community is as diverse as the straight community and if we treat those in our tribe as if they are less than us, then we are committing the very sin we condemn the straights for committing in their treatment of us.

Codey

> Codey climbs off his soapbox and heads to the cafeteria for lunch<

:) :) :) :) :)

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Thirdeye....You say you don't see a need for gay role models or examples. I'm having a hard time reconciling this statement with your earlier post. In it you said that your brother, who had been homophobic according to another post you did, had two good gay friends. Don't you think that these two gays were responsible, in part, for the change in your brothers thinking? Don't you think that they were not only an example to a straight guy but also gave you the courage to face your fears and begin your coming out? It's people like these two that I'm talking about when I say example or role model. Don't you think, that by denying the need for examples like them, you could be condemning some kid to the misery that you lived from the time you were eleven? Wouldn't you have been happier, even though you were still closeted, to see that there was hope for you when you were older by seeing an example like them much earlier in your life?

)

I don't ever remember saying my Brother was homophobic, far from it. He's so open minded its scary sometimes. I also think you missed my point which is these role models that people are looking for are out there they just are not going around door to door and saying "Hi, I'm Joe, Gay, make 100 K a year and live happy with Dave my partner of 10 years and we don't sleep around". Most of these people are content to live their lives happy and thats the way it should be.

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Sorry about that Thirdeye....I got you mixed up with someone in a thread on a different board.

I stiil believe my points are valid about the gay friends of your brother. They could not have helped but to have been an influence on him...and on you.

Once again I'll say that you don't have to wear your sexuality on your sleeve to be a good example. If you believe the 10% theory, then there are nearly 30,000,000 million gays in this country If only 10% percent of those were out and each affected the lives of only one person per year. Then 10% of those affected cameout and in turn affected one person each..and so on, it would in time affect a gret number of people who may never have been exposed to gayness and the gay community. You don't have to shout your orientation to the world but if you could make someones life better then it shouldn't hurt you to be out to some who you trust. Their accteptance of you might lead to letting one of their other friends or even a relative know that they don't have to live in fear and self denial. That they do have hope of a better life someday.

I don't advocate any teen coming out. Some are outted by others and live miserable lives until they can escape. If an outted teen sees that there's someone like him out there and that person has survived and now has a better life then it can only be a plus for him. If they don't see an example of surviving and making it, it can only worsen his self image and may even lead to him becoming a statistic. If those in hiding consistently choose their own comfort level over the feelings and concerns of those who are in need, then we truely are not a community and not deserving of the acceptance we seek.

That sounds harsh but that is what I believe.

Codey

Now it's back to studying to keep dad happy

:) :wink:

ps; being an example or role model isn't just for the gays struggling with their sexuality. It's equally as important that you are also an example to the straights around you so that they can see the lies and untruths they have been told about us. are, in themselves, lies and untruths

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I'll agree somewhat, but really I believe the type of role models we need not only come from the gay community but really the straight community. If we had more people in the world teaching tolerance and respect things would be a lot better. Instead we TV shows where Gays are the butt of jokes, Church leaders preaching hate and many Teachers just letting things slide.

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