Questions

[Graeme]

Another great selection of thought-provoking posts. Thanks, everyone!

There are a few things I want to pick up.

The first is one that Aaron mentioned. When he first realised he's gay, he started acting effeminate because that's what he thought gays did. He's since learnt otherwise, but I'm sure he's not the only one who has thought that. The issue of promiscuity is another one of those stereotypes that needs to be addressed. We have been talking about role models. As part of that, we need to find ways to educate young gays that this is a stereotype and does not necessarily mean that is what you should be. My question was along those lines. There is no doubt in my mind that the homosexual "community" has a high degree of promiscuity. I'll leave the debate of whether or not this is a good thing to one side and I would just like to state that this does not mean that this is part of what it means to be gay.

The next thing is one of tolerance within the gay "community" itself. Tolerance does not mean that you have to personally accept things. I like to think that I'm a tolerant person (apart from fools, but that's another story), but I will put up my hand and say that I am uncomfortable with African-American sub-culture. Does that make me a racist or a bigot? I don't believe so. What it means is that I have a comfortable zone which I don't like to leave, and that's an issue for me and me alone. It says nothing about whether the African-American sub-culture is good, bad or indifferent. It is a personal feeling -- not even an opinion. I'm perfectly happy with the members of that sub-culture and the sub-culture itself, I just feel uncomfortable if I'm presented with it.

The extension of that idea for straights with the gay sub-culture is obvious, as is the various gay sub-culture variants. I will again hold up my hand and state that I feel uncomfortable around queens and overly effeminate people -- not all of which are gay. Again, this is me and my reaction and I make no comment about them. I also feel uncomfortable being in a group of blokes talking about cars and engines -- it's just not something I care for.

If we choose to stay hidden and feel sorry for ourselves and choose to not actively work to change things, then we give up the right to bitch and complain about how things are. If you choose to live and hide behind your fears and are miserable, remember this, you are living the life you chose.

I want to make a point that staying hidden does not necessarily mean that you feel sorry for yourself. I certainly didn't. My life does not and never has revolved around my sexual orientation. If I felt sorry for myself when I was younger, that was because of a lack of friends, which had nothing to do with my sexual orientation but was more to do with my lack of social skills, my personality and a significant age difference with my school peers.

There are many risks in holding a mortgage, loss of your home because of accident, illness or layoff comes quickly to mind. Do you let these risks control your life or do face them and live with them? If financial lose and disruption are more important than being true to who you really are, then that's the choice you should make, but perhaps you should take a good hard look at the direction your life is headed and reevaluate your values and goals first though.

Life is full of compromises. Financial security vs being open to the world about your sexuality is one of those. Codey used the phrase "being true to who you really are" when he talked about this. Again, it implies that your sexual orientation is a major part of who you are. I will concede it is an important part, but to define yourself around it, as is implied, I think is wrong.

I agree about not letting risks control your life, but the idea of risk management is recognising what risks there are and making considered judgement calls on what risks are acceptable, which are not, and what can be done to mitigate them. You mentioned accident and illness. Insurance policies, including income protection insurance (I presume you have this in the USA), is a risk mitigation strategy to address this.

Taking an extreme example, being fired for yelling abuse at the boss is a risk. However, it can be avoided by simply finding other outlets for frustration and aggression. Being fired for being open about your sexuality can be avoided by simply not mentioning the subject in the work environment -- it's really not relevant there anyway. I'll admit that I am not happy that it may be necessary, but you need to weigh up whether or not the potential financial loss is worth being open. This is not "fear" but simply a considered judgement call on what your priorities are -- and this can change with time (like after I win the lottery this Saturday...).

You want to be a tribe? ok. Then be a real tribe. "Nobody gets left behind, and nobody gets forgotten." That's what it means to be a tribe.

You've hit a pet peeve of mine. The gay community has the same mix of people as the straight community. There are statesmen and rogues, heroes and villians, honest and dishonest people. I sometimes sense that there are people out there who think that because this person is also gay, they must be a good guy and someone that can trusted.

I know that this is not what you meant, but it was an implication that some people might think. As far as group rights and acceptance are concerned, I agree with you. On an individual basis, however, everyone is still just another person with the usual mixture of sainthood and deviltry.

I also have to point out that even here, people are potentially being excluded. We have been talking about "gay" (which I am assuming also include "lesbian"). What about "bi" and "transgender"? Are they part of this community, from the point of view of "nobody gets left behind"?

Are we talking about all sexual practises that the mainstream community does not generally do. Bestiality is one that springs to mind. Should we be also campaigning for the rights of people to have sex with animals? After all, who is harmed by the practise?

Before anyone starts thinking weird things about me, I will state that I have a fondness of playing "Devil's Advocate" -- the above is a set of questions and reveals nothing about my personal opinions. It was also triggered by a recent news report where one opponent to civil rights for gays used this as one of their arguments against legislation that would prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. They also included pedophilia, incest and necrophilia in their list....

More food for thought.

Graeme

[Thirdeye]

Another great selection of thought-provoking posts. Thanks, everyone!

There are a few things I want to pick up.

The first is one that Aaron mentioned. When he first realised he's gay, he started acting effeminate because that's what he thought gays did. He's since learnt otherwise, but I'm sure he's not the only one who has thought that. The issue of promiscuity is another one of those stereotypes that needs to be addressed. We have been talking about role models. As part of that, we need to find ways to educate young gays that this is a stereotype and does not necessarily mean that is what you should be. My question was along those lines. There is no doubt in my mind that the homosexual "community" has a high degree of promiscuity. I'll leave the debate of whether or not this is a good thing to one side and I would just like to state that this does not mean that this is part of what it means to be gay

Graeme

My big problem is the way they try to make it out to be just a "gay" problem. Like affairs or cheating in straight relationships are so rare. I am sure we all know guys that every week end are out there trying to pick up some a new chick. If anything I think this is a problem in society in general then just with the gay community, Gays just get it stuck to them. After all we all at fault for the decline of family values and the failure of the family structure, never mind that no group has less divorces in America than gays :roll:

[Codey]

Graeme....I think you would have to admit that your case isn't typical. I talk to a lot of teens and they do feel sorry for themselves because they can't have what their peers have. It would be interesting if some of the closeted adults would truthfully share their feelings about themselves. Agreed that sexuality should not be the sole governing force in your life but tell that to a 35 year old man who has never had a partner of either sex. Ask himhow he feels when he is out eating alone and he's surrounded by couples. Ask him how he feels when the party's over and everyones paired up but him and he goes home alone. Even though our sexuality doesn't define us it greatly influences all the things that do define us.

Before you married you probably dated women because you were unsure of your orientation so you were one of the couples. There are some of us that have no doubt about our orientation. I don't think it would be possible for me to have sex with a girl no matter how badly I wanted too. I don't know how long you've been married but at least six years since your oldest is five. You've always had someone to come home to...not just an empty apartment and maybe a cat.

If you took whatever feelings that made you decide to come out and risk everything you have then multiply it by a thousand you might come close to the feelings lonely closeted gays live with daily.

Yes I do include lesbians. Bi's and transgendered in our community.

Codey

[The Mail Crew]

Hi guys and girls,

My name is David. I am the one "hopelessly straight" member of The Mail Crew. Eric has been my best friend since we were about 4 years old. Eric and Trey came out to me a little over 2 years ago and I was shocked. But I had been thinking Eric was ignoring me and taking up with Trey as a new best friend, so I was glad to know why. I admire all of these brothers of mine of the crew. They have helped a lot of kids and I am glad to be part of it. I handle most of the sh*t from straight guys who send hate mail but there is not a lot of that anymore.

I know gay guys can help each other in a lot of ways even if they don't come out to the world. Gabriel is a fighter in his way and Drake and Graeme and others are fighters in their own ways. All of you have the same goal I think.

Trey has a big plaque in his room that his dad gave him when he was 12 as a way to pump him up for football. It ended up helping Trey a lot after he came out to his parents when he was 15 and his dad rejected him. And now it helps the whole mail crew when things get tough. it is a quote from Theodore Roosevelt. I think all of you are showing that you are not cold and timid souls and I like that. Here it is from a site I googled:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the door of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

All I can say is keep up the good work you all are doing in your own ways.

David

p.s. Hope y'all don't mind hearing from a straight guy.

[Graeme]

Codey,

Some parts of my life I believe are typical.

I had no one I could consider to be a friend, as distinct from an acquantaince, until I was well into my twenties. I went on a cruise ship (alone -- my goal was to force myself to meet people while I was holidays) for my twenty-fifth birthday, and I still remember distinctly how I felt when I sat down for dinner that night and found that no one else who normally sat at that table had bother to show up.

Oh, I know exactly how lonely that person you described can feel.

I have had a total of two girlfriends in my entire life, and I married the second one. The first relationship lasted only seven months, but as we lived in different cities, I learnt first-hand how hard long distance relationships are to maintain.

I have known I'm gay since year six at school. I've never been unsure of my orientation.

So why did I end up with girlfriends? Because I was so starved of affection, of someone who indicated that they liked me, that I was vulnerable to anyone who showed an interest in me. For the record, both girls chased me, not the other way around.

So, I married for love, not sex. The bit you mentioned about having someone to come home to was part of it, too. I was in my late twenties at the time. We have recently had our fourteenth wedding anniversary.

With what I now know, I probably would have gone to gay bars and nightclubs when I was younger, and found someone that way. But back then, I didn't know of any, or what they would be like.

I'm not writing this because I took offense at your assumptions -- I didn't, as they were quite reasonable from what you knew of me. I am writing this so you will understand that even though my current circumstances are atypical, I do understand what it is like to grow up as a gay teenager and young adult -- even if the world is now a very different place than it was back then.

Graeme

[Lugnutz]

Agreed that sexuality should not be the sole governing force in your life but tell that to a 35 year old man who has never had a partner of either sex. Ask him how he feels when he is out eating alone and he's surrounded by couples. Ask him how he feels when the party's over and everyones paired up but him and he goes home alone.

Codey

THIS is my life. when my day is done, i go to my empty house, talk to my cats.

the last sentance bout wraps up why i don't go out much. actually, the whole paragraph wraps up my life.

BTW, i'm 38.

[Graeme]

p.s. Hope y'all don't mind hearing from a straight guy.

Of course not!

I hope you jump in more often, as an "outside" view is sometime needed to put things into perspective.

Cheers!

Graeme

[blue]

It's been busy while I was away today! I'll try to go through in order of some things that struck me while catching up with posts.

Gays sleeping around: The discussion Graeme and I had was a little while back. So I may have imagined it, but I think we covered some of these: We talked about it being a stumbling block for straight or questioning people toward acceptance of gays. We talked about how it was just like the straight guy or girl who goes bed hopping. We also talked about the idea (I've heard it said in self-criticism on a gay program) that some gays say they have so few chances to have a partner for sex, and are so lonely for it, that they use that to justify sleeping around. Before you all write back angry replies, please notice this was raised as a problem and a self-criticism by someone within the gay community on a program. What we talked about was how those ideas would affect a questioning person or even a comfortably out person -- how to present the issue as a story conflict and in a balanced way. -- Note: That is NOT a story spoiler. I don't know how, or if, aussie_gw will use that in the story, only that he's mentioned here that he'll do something with it. -- So please don't imagine some character or some scene will turn out a certain way in the story.

OK, discrimination and exclusion, among gays. First off, yes, that includes lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people. It is a weakness in the community and even on the web (including in forums like this, sadly) that such segregation occurs. Some people would say that it's because gay males want to hang out together and gay females want to hang out together, but not necessarily both groups together, so they can talk comfortably. I've heard a similar argument used for why churches are not more racially mixed, that they feel more comfortable among their own race or culture. While there may be something to that, I think overall, it's a weakness of our Western culture. I'm broadening this too much, I'd better rein it in.

I'm going to try to bring a few points together with one example. High school. One of those guys I argued for was harrassed because he fit the "gay stereotype," what people usually think of as gay or effeminate. It was just enough to notice. He couldn't help it. I am sure he would have, if he could. If he was gay, he didn't know it. Neither did I, despite wondering and clues. (I am not saying he is or was gay. Just because someone seems that way, doesn't mean they are.)

We have to include the guys who "act gay," or who are effeminate, and the macho jocks, and the skinny nerds, and the guys who no one would ever guess was gay, because they don't "seem like it."

Yes, that's "not leaving anyone behind" and being for the group.

That also includes not forgetting that "the group" includes straight people who are friends and relatives (including people's children). -- I wish there were more "definitely straight" people who support their gay (GLBT) friends.

The "group" includes people who are confused, or questioning, or in the closet. That means the "me" from 11 through 19, who wasn't sure what to think of all those feelings, and the "me" from 19 until a few months ago, who painted himself into a tiny corner of a closet, because he couldn't get past his past and his dilemma over being Christian and gay. It also includes people like me now, who recently, finally figured it out enough, because things happened to remind him of the truth.

I have been saying "gay" and "straight" a lot in this thread to distinguish the differences. I wonder if that in itself isn't one of the problems, no matter who's using the terms.

Being that guy living alone is one of the reasons I had to open up and come out.

------

David, I wish each of you guys from TheMailCrew would post when you can. You each have something worth hearing. That is the reason your group, and groups like it, and Gay-Straight Alliances generally, are needed. Somewhere out there are kids and teens and adults who don't know what to think about "those gay people;" and some of them are "those gay people" themselves, while some of them are simply open minded enough to understand. So each of you has an opinion and experiences that others need to hear about, so they have a chance to understand.

[Guest rusticmonk86]

This Is My Soul: This Is What I Belive In: This Is What I Live For: This Is My Truth

Gabriel Duncan

When I was twelve, I already knew I was gay. I'd found the word when I was eleven and realized that was a word I would use to describe myself. Of course, up until I was eleven years old, I thought it was perfectly natural and "in-the-norm" to like other guys. But, when my school mates starting becoming interested in the opposite sex, I had to acknowledge that I was different. Luckily, I had the internet from the time that I was eight, so I could just hop online and find out more.

That's where I found the word; from the more supportive, and clinical (straight-forward statistics and the like) I learned that being gay wasn't bad; even though a lot of people thought it was. I found that most ancient civilizations not only tolerated, but sometimes celebrated homosexuals.

But I was still scared to say what I was openly. I'd read all of the worst case scenarios. So I kept it secret for a while more. I told one of my closest friends at the end of the sixth grade that I was bi. He was cool with it. Which made me feel absolutely relieved. I went through that summer feeling comfortable with myself. I'd told one person and that was good enough for me.

Then school came again. Another 165 days trapped with the same people. Except, I was in a totally new environment. I knew I could make a fresh start and come as who I was. Honestly, I think a lot of the coming out process has to deal a lot with self-affirmation. It's another way to give yourself value by acknowledging by acknowledging your true self. But whether or not I knew it would be healing, over all, to share, I didn't. So my secret stayed shut.

School wasn't too bad, I heard kids called each other "Fag" and things "Gay". And it felt like they were talking about me, sometimes. It didn't hurt me all of the time. But the times it did, I had to ask myself: If those words had been in such use only for things that were bad or wrong, then what did that mean they thought of who I was? What would they do if I come out?

Girls were constantly flirting with me and asking me out on dates. But rejected their advances and shied away from the real truth of the matter. Of course, that only made them want me more, and I seemed to become mysterious, I guess. I started writing With Scott during that time. It was a story of an idealized relationship, a world where it was okay to be gay and no one ever bothered you about it. Because, that's what I imagined the world should be.

This is in suburbia. Where there were few minorities. We may have had a handful of black people in the school, and they were all tokenized and turned into whatever the media wanted them to be, even amongst them.

I wanted to tell my secret, so I tested my friends. I mentioned someone who acted gay to see their reaction. I found two people who seemed to have a "live and let live" attitude about everyone. They were Eleanor and Allan.

I'd been talking to them both on AIM for a while and we had a good friendship going in and outside of school. I told Eleanor first. I was terrified that she would tell other people. Even more than that, she would disown me as a friend and reject me as a human being. But she was very supportive. We talked about my fear of judgment and persecution. And she agreed that it was stupid. I felt empowered. So, I told Allan.

Allan seemed comfortable with my revelation. We finished off our conversation with idle chit chat. I thought everything was fine. We had an understanding that this was something personal I was sharing only with him. But it didn't turn out that way.

Before I make this sound like the long, terrible thing that it would turn into, I just want to fill you in on a few things: (a) that I had planned to come out sometime in that year, (b) that part of my plan was to ease everyone into the idea by telling them I was bi, © I would tell my parents before I would tell my friends at school (thereby already taking care of the risk of having anyone from school telling someone who knew my parents), (d) I would tell my school friends and, (e) I would later come out of gay, completing the transition.

To chart the way something like this spreads is like following the chain of an epidemic. Allan was adopted into the circle that I was in from my old school. It?s obvious that he infected them. And that those people would infect others.

But, everything went wrong. I didn't know it yet. Not until the rain would start a week after I told Allan and Eleanor.

When it rains, no one stays outside. We were corralled into either the lunch room or the library. It was in the library that a kid that I'd never seen before approached me.

"Are you Gabe?" He asked.

"Yeah," I replied.

He seemed hesitant, "Are you bi?"

The pivotal moment. Do I deny that I'm gay, force myself into a series of relationships that I have no interest in, thereby ruining any credibility or respect that I have when I would come out later on in high school and subjecting myself to even further humiliation (after pushing myself to the point of even further self-loathing)? Or, do I just bite the bullet and push my plan ahead a little bit?

"Yes," I told him, "I am. Why?"

"Just wondering." And he scurried off to tell the ones who didn't know.

It was odd, to say the least, and very anti-climactic for the moment. But, nevertheless, it was as terrifying as staring into the open jowls of a tiger. I needed to tell my parents. When I came home from school, my mom was taking a nap. I remember it was overcast and the rain had stopped sometime toward the end of the school day.

"Mom?"

She stirred, "Yeah?"

"I have something to tell you."

?What??

Deep breath, ?I think I?m bi.?

?Oh, okay.?

I figured that I?d have to get support by at least one out of the two groups that I would tell. But, just in case, I was able to find a gay support group in my city that I planned to attend that week?the next day, actually. So why not make it one-out-of-three, for sure?

?Umm . . . Can I go to a gay support group on Wedensday? I think it?ll really help me.?

?Sure.?

?Okay.?

And that was it. Granted, my mom was tired. I?m sure if it was a really bad thing, she would?ve freaked out, no matter how tired she was. She used to tell me stories of her old job as a waitress in San Francisco. The cast of characters had a few gay mean. And she worked with a lesbian that was also her friend. So, I shouldn?t have been worried about her freaking out at all. But then again, I expected the worst and only hoped for tolerance.

When I arrived at the youth group, I sat inside the lobby, trying to build up the never to ask the receptionist where the group was. But I did. And I was shocked once I walked into the room. I expected to find people like me. Well, these people were. But I expected to find people who acted like me. Those people were all effeminate. I thought that was only a stereo-type, like the websites said. That day, we watched a documentary. I?m not sure what it was about. But I?m glad that we did, because I got the chance to push aside my pre-conceptions and take in the people sitting around me. I left right away afterwards.

My parents were sitting at the dining room table when I got home. My heart stopped. I had told my mother not to tell my father. But she did.

?Gabe,? My mother addressed me, ?I told your father what you told me and we need to talk.?

?Can we talk downstairs in the den? I don?t want my sister to hear.? Of course, the real reason was that I need some time to ready myself for what was about to happen.

In the den:

?Well, your father and I just wanted to let you know that we love you and support you and that you?ll always be our son.?

No, there was no teary embrace. But I did feel wonderful. And I could breathe much easier.

Then my father added, ?You know, son: what you think you are right now may not always be what you will be in the future.?

?Okay, Dad.?

Later, my mother would talk about putting a rainbow sticker on her car. But I asked her not to because a friend I was working with at the time said that people were trying to run her off the road because of it. She even went to a PFLAG meeting. I know I?m lucky. But I didn?t spend all my time at home. I had to go to school.

The next week was when ?it? started. It was small at first. I heard things whispered behind my back. Someone accidentally bumped into me. Surprisingly, only one incident ever occurred in the locker rooms. But, outside, it got worse. Someone dumped glue on jacket I had. Then they got bold. People wanted to fight. They called me fag to my face.

I played pacifist. I had read the anti-discrimination policies that my school had implemented. And they include me in their sexual harassment sheet. So I told the Vice Principal what was happening. I?d told my school, my parents and complete strangers, how hard would it be to tell a vice-principal? I walked up to him during a morning passing period.

?Hey Mr. D, I just came out as bisexual and now I?m being harassed because of it. I read the packet you guys sent out in the beginning of the school year that said this is part of your anti-harassment policy and I want you to stop it.?

Mr. D said, ?Gabriel, this is a very serious problem. You should talk to the principal about it.?

So I did, ?Hey Mr. Y, Mr. D told me to tell you: I just came out as bisexual and now I?m being harassed because of it. I read the packet you guys sent out in the beginning of the school year that said this is part of your anti-harassment policy and I want you to stop it.?

And Mr. Y said, ?Gabriel, this is a very serious problem. You should talk to the counselor about it.?

So I did, ?I just came out as bisexual and now I?m being harassed. I talked to Mr. D, who told me to talk to Mr. Y, who told me to talk to you. I know this is in your anti-harassment packet. That means you?re required by the district to do something about it. So I want you to stop it, now.?

Ms. S said, ?Gabriel, this is very serious problem. I want you to write down the names of everyone who?s harassing you.?

So I did. I made the list and we took three school days to go through it. At first, I thought she was going to do it alone. But when she called the first student in, she asked me to stay. Then she got down to business. She told the kid that what he was doing was an act of ignorance; that I was person just like him, and it?s against the law. She went on to say that, if he did again, he could be arrested.

It stopped there. I finished out the year and was able to pick up most of my classes (save for Spanish and math). Everything seemed to be good. For a while, at least.

Then they found Matthew Sheppard. I cried for him. And I knew that?s what could have happened to me. But the truth and overwhelming mortality of it didn?t hit me until later, when it happened again.

Next year, same time, just like before. Except worse. People were screaming at me this time. And I was being cornered often than usual. I learnt to fight. But I never learnt how to stop the harassment. The administration couldn?t do much. They had ended up suspending a few people. But there just came more. And, when the suspendee's came back, they were just more pissed off.

I hid all of this from my parents until I had to tell them. That was towards May, when it seemed to come to a head. My mother reacted by pulling me out of the school and transferring me into an alternative high school that would sometimes take kids from 8th grade. It was much better there. No one really gave a shit. But, what had happened at my old school would still burn inside me.

This is where I usually stop during workshops to tell everyone that everyone?s experiences are different. And we all don?t have the choice of (seemingly) simply going to another school. But it was the place that I could go to for safety. And people the people who are trying to receive their teaching credentials will nod their heads and thank me for sharing my story. And agree with me, that we do need more supportive teachers in schools.

But for you, I want to tell you why I?m even mentioning talking to student teachers. Or why I?m even sharing this story with you.

When I had been out of my middle school for two months, one of the members of the support group that I had become a part of told me he was also involved with an organization called GLSEN (Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network). They were going to do a workshop for the teachers at my old school. I said I was interested and he got in touch with the workshop presenter.

We ended up meeting at my old school, outside of the library. Ms. Forrester told me that I didn?t have to speak. I was dead scared of it. I?d only ever spoken for reports in class. And speaking about this, to my old teachers . . . . I told her I wanted to. She told me to give them the basics: who I am, where I go to school, my story and what teachers could do to help me.

It was a slap in the face for most them, I?m sure. They were only doing what they knew how to do (I know that now, as they did then) and to hear me say that it didn?t work, that it wasn?t enough, must have been hurtful. But if it really didn?t work and the truth is: It wasn?t enough. Then they needed to hear it.

They needed to hear it. And it was just one way I could prevent my past from repeating itself.

When Proposition 21 was put on the ballot in California to add ?marriage is a union between a man and a woman? to the state constitution, I fought against it. In this last election year, that same amendment was proposed and passed for 11 other states. But we fought against that, too.

If you?re going to look down on progress by whether you win or lose each battle, you?re looking at it the wrong way. If you?re thinking of backing out of anything you believe in fighting for, then you?re doing the wrong thing.

So I?ve got you here. And I?ve got you all talking about how unfairly or poorly we?re being treated. I?ve got you arguing about why. Is this a war? Is it not a war? I don?t like the word ?war?.

But we all agree one ONE THING. Something?s wrong. Now it?s time to do something.

This is not a backlash from Stonewall. This is not because we are pushing too hard. It?s because we?re pushing, PERIOD. Was Abraham Lincoln too radical? Did Rosa Parks talk too loud? Did Martin Luther King Jr. push too hard? No! They all wanted equal and fair treatment.

Sarah Grimk?, Harriet Tubman, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin, Mary Church Terrel, Margaret Sanger and many more ALL fought for the women?s rights. They fought for freedom to voting to birth control.

The Declaration of Independence, The Ninteenth Ammendment, The Boston Tea Party, The Emancipation Proclaimation, Thirteenth Ammendment, The Fifteenth Ammendment, The Sherman Antitrust Act . . . The Scopes Trial.

Alfred Kinsey, Stonewall, Homosexual no longer a disorder, Don?t Ask Don?t Tell, Civil Unions, Sodomy Laws, Marriage in Massachusetts.

This is American History. This is my country?s history. As blood speckled, discriminative and genocidal as it is this is where I live. These are people who stood tall and proud for what they believed in. All I want is for all of this fighting to be over. I want to be treated equal.

A wise man spoke to a crowd on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on August 28th of 1963. He said something that the world will never forget:

?I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ?We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.? I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.?

I just don?t understand why it has to be just us fighting for ourselves. I don?t understand why it can?t be ?all of us toghether; fighting for the good of us.? Why can?t people just wake up and realize that maybe this is all we have; this strange skin that we live in, the only planet we?ll ever have? Maybe the reason we?re here is just to live, and function like every other animal? I don?t understand why we can?t just be human.

I?m sorry if I?m over-stepping my gracious privelage of obscurity. I?m sorry if I demand fair treatment and equality for all man-kind. But I have to demand it; because this isn?t life. This is a lie.

[Codey]

This thread is beginning to frustrate me. Maybe I should pull back for awhile and take a breather.

We have the younger guys saying we need gay role models or examples. We have the older guys saying we don't need them because there are plenty of gays living "normal" lives. We just don't see them because of their normalcy.

How can these gays living "normal" lives show us that we can too if we can't see them? What if a math teacher were to tell us to solve a problem and that there were plenty of examples for us to use but then said we can't see them because they're busy being normal examples and are blending in with the rest of the math world? How long would it take us to give up even trying to solve the problem? We all agree that one of the biggest obstacles we have to overcome is the misperception of us held by many straights. How are we going to convince them it is a misperception if we don't show them. We've tried telling them but unless they see it, they're never going to believe it. We have to face the fact that the solutions we've tried over and over have not worked. We need to be courageous enough to try other solutions and then more, if needed, until we find the one that works.

We have younger guys coming out more and more these days and saying we need to see older guys also coming out so we can see we're not alone in the struggle. We have older guys saying people should only come out if they really feel strongly about it but they personally can't come out because their case is different. The adults see this as a justification for their inaction. We kids see it as an excuse so you can cover your own butts. Everyone's case is different but we have a common bond that should unite us but for some reason it doesn't.

Let's talk about a bunch of those kids with different cases. Gay teen suicide. There, I just said the unmentionable words. How many of those kids would still be alive if they could have seen someone like them in the real world? How many would have not taken the pills or blown out their brains if they'd have seen hope in their futures? How many would not have felt so alone and abandoned if they knew the guys living up the street were more than room mates? How many would have not made the choice to end their lives if they had been shown options they never felt or knew they had?

This, like coming out, is a problem we can't keep hiding from. I was told recently by an author that he wasn't interested in writing a story about a gay teens suicide attempt from the boys point of view. What was the reason given? You would think it would be because it was too heart wrenching but that wasn't it. The reason was he felt the subject was too "sensitive" and he didn't feel comfortable with it. That hadn't stopped him from writing about it from the view point of those around the boy tough. Believe me, and I do speak from personal experience, when you feel so abandoned or alone that you've decided there is only one way out, there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. The adults want to treat suicide but you can't. There's no magic pill. You can treat the causes of suicide but only if you talk about it and air those causes. The adults may want to hold their tongues about this

"sensitive" subject but I'll let you in on a little secret. We kids do see the problem. We kids do talk about suicide. We kids are actively working to try to correct some of the causes of suicide. We kids are in this battle alone too. Anyone can quote statistics. Quoting statistics has never saved a life.

We have younger guys saying you can't further our cause by staying hidden. We have older guys saying they are working to further the cause by pretending to be straight. This has never worked in the past so why cling to the hope that it will now? How do you know you're not doing more harm than good?

David said in his post he was hurt because he thought his best friend was abandoning him, then when Trey and Eric came out to him, he was hurt again by realizing his best friend had kept this important part of who he was hidden from him. Neither of those two hurts would have happened if he would have known Trey was gay. He would have seen Trey and Eric's relationship as the same as between him and whatever girl he was dating.

When you do decide to come out, if ever, How do you think the people you've been fooling all these years will take it? Will they say that what you were saying all those years was just you trying to glorify homosexuals because you are one or will they say that you were right all those years? My money goes on the former choice.

I guess you could call me an activist but you don't have to attend demonstrations or parades to be an activist. You don't have to participate in sit ins or civil disobedience. All you have to do is be you. Not trying to blend into straight life by hiding a very important part of you, but blending into a normal life by not hiding. By showing pride in who you are and not letting others make you feel you have to hide to be a part of society.

When asked why she refused to move to the rear of the bus and stand Rosa Parks said "I was tired." That's the point a lot of us are at in our lives. We're tired and need to make a stand. We're tired of knowing that not only the straight world views us as second class but that some in our community give the impression that they do too by their inactions in doing something to make it better for all of us.

Codey

[Guest rusticmonk86]

It's true, Cody. It went from a discussion about a common bond. To more choice of word arguments. But this is what it's like everywhere. Fortunatly and unfortunatly for us, this world (the internet) is a place of hardly any consequence to the ones outside our windows.

I'm stepping away from this conversation now, too.

[aj]

Ok...Is anyone else confused at this point? Why am I confused? Let me summarize what i'm hearing...

1.) we want role models, but we don't want them to be the freaks and fags. We want nice, normal guys who live nice, normal lives and just happen to be gay.

2.) We don't want these guys to participate in gay pride parades, or necessarily to even be politically active--no signs around their necks saying "I'm gay." But we want it to be immediately obvious that they are gay, so that they can be role models for us.

3.) We'd prefer that they be involved in long term, monogamous relationships...or at least want to be.

4.) We want everyone who is gay to come out, regardless of the risks involved to their positions in the community, their relationships with their loved ones, or to their fortunes. If you don't do this, and a gay teen committs suicide, it may be construed as your fault.

Is that a fair summary of what you're asking for? I've tried to winnow through all the words and find the kernels of what you want.

Despite making these demands, I still haven't heard what it really is that you want from us. I keep hearing the words "be role models" but quite truthfully, i don't know what that means. The only role i know how to model is being me...and i doubt many teens would want to be me. I'm a product of my history: years spent being suicidal and desperately not wanting to be gay, years spent wondering if they were going to round up and quarantine gays during the years of AIDS hysteria, years spent in a happy monogamous relationship and years spent being a slut. And finally, after all those years of doubt and confusion and not knowing, reaching a place of balance and accomodation with who and what I am, and being relatively content and at peace with myself. But no one showed me how to get here, and (being rather hard-headed) i wouldn't have understood or paid any attention if someone had. Reaching a place where i have the confidence and fortitude to say to straight people, friends and strangers alike, "No, i won't come to your wedding because I can't marry the person of my choice." is something that has come as the product of a process, and one which i had to discover for myself.

So, knowing that these things are true, it seems to me that what you are asking from us is a bit like the math teacher writing out a long and complicated equation on the board, and then saying "The answer is 42." And letting it go at that. Would you be satisfied with that? I'd hope not. But unlike the math teacher, we can't teach you how to get to the answer you're seeking, which it seems to me is something akin to "What must i do to be a happy and well adjusted gay man in this society?" All we can do is be there with an encouraging word when you fall down, and celebrate with you the moments of triumph. The falls and the triumphs are what teach you how to be happy.

I wish it were easier, or at least less difficult, but it isn't.

cheers,

aj

[carolinascribbler]

Humans are fallible creatures. On our very best days, we still make mistakes and fall short of someone's vision of what we should be. Would it be easier for younger members of the lgbt community if they had role models? Certainly. I have to add that it would benefit ALL members and not just the younger folks. But, isn't it a little selfish say, 'You owe me'?

I'm not one to wave flags or wear t-shirts with cute messages, or have bumper stickers on my car, or march in PRIDE parades. I have pride in who I am without rainbows. Does this make me any less of a member of the lgbt community? I would argue no. Is someone who does wear the t-shirts, marches in the parades, or waves the flag anymore of a member of the lgbt community? Again, I would argue no.

By talking to our friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors, we can change attitudes and views just as much (and maybe more so) than any sticker or flag or parade ever can. That's just my opinion, of course.

By living our lives as best we can, trying to be good, decent, honest, caring, trusting individuals is the very best way I can think of to be role models. You know those two old guys who have lived together for 35 years or those two old women who have been "roommates" forever?(And most of us know a couple like this) Chances are, they are gay. Sure, they might not be 'out-n-proud' or 'in your face' but they are probably gay. They might not speak to gay youth groups or march in parades or go to the local gay clubs, but chances are...they are gay. Are they any less members of the lgbt community? Are they any less of a model of what two gay people should be simply because they aren't easily recognizable as being gay?

Older people, and I include all of us over 30-something, were raised in a different time. Most remember when homosexuality wasn't discussed at all and actually coming out meant getting beaten up or worse. That was a fact. That was simply the way it was. Like some of my peers have said, there weren't ANY good gay role models PERIOD. Over the past twenty or so years, great strides have been made. Barriers and walls meant to divide have been knocked down and bridges have been built to bring about understanding and acceptance. Anyone who tries to make things better for everyone in the lgbt community is an ally, a friend.

Society is slow to change. It's hard to accept things we don't understand. But by being the very best we can be, WE ALL can be role models to everyone. Codey, I am very sorry for what happened to you at that school. It was wrong and I'm sure it left a very bad impression on your friend but by you and Champ just being the best you can be and by thinking about the consequences before you act on something, you can be great role models yourselves. The Mail Crew was mentioned earlier and I have to say this clearly, the guys in The Mail Crew are GREAT ROLE MODELS. That's right, they are role models for all, not just other gay boys. They are hard-working, responsible, thoughtful young men who don't let their sexuality dictate their lives. Oh, it IS a part who they are, no doubt, but it isn't all they are. I'm 38 and these boys(young men) are MY role model. I've told them that in private and now, I'm saying it for all to know.

Let me back up a bit and touch on something else. I don't find fault with anyone who is closeted, either completely or partially. We all have our own crosses to bear and we all know our individual situations far better than anyone else. I'm thankful for guys like Lugnutz(Jeff), Drake, Graeme, Dewey, Blue and so many others. Like some of them, I too, didn't come to terms with my sexuality until later. Are we outcasts because of that? Should our voices by silenced? We are trying to do right by ourselves and in the process, we're also trying to share our knowledge of life and guide those who are just beginning their own journey through life. I cannot find fault with that.

Part of being a role model is knowing that one has a responsiblity to reach out to others who have a need and to direct them in a positive manner. Part of being a role model is simply doing whatever one can to positively influence others to help further a cause.

Equal rights, justice, tolerance and acceptance for the lgbt community won't happen overnight. It has been a long, hard struggle and the fight will continue. It has gotten easier and will continue to get easier. In my opinion, the greatest thing ANY of us can do is to just live life the best we can and continue to positively influence those around us.

I know that most of what I've said has already been said by others, and they've said it better too, but I felt I needed to weigh in on this thread.

All in my humble opinion.

Best wishes to all,

Johnny :D

[blue]

Hey, guys (and any ladies too) -- I saw something earlier, but didn't get to comment.

I hope we "older" guys haven't given the impression (and I sure hope we didn't say it!) that we think role models are not needed. -- We all know they are, both younger and older role models.

Gabe's and Codey's stories? They could've been written by someone my age with almost no change.

Those of us who write and edit (most of us, anyway) try to be careful how we tell a story, because we know that the emotional content may be so strong or so reminiscent, that it can cause the very thing we don't want to see happen. So how a story is told has to be done so that it motivates a good change instead.

We seem to have a problem between the age groups about what it means to be out and visible. So OK, how should someone be out and visible? How do you do that without being obnosious or unsafe? -- There are times when you *can* let it be known. The misunderstanding seems to be in assuming that has to do with being in-your-face, along with some baggage about whether someone is assertive or not, conservative or liberal, activist or not political, or even low-key or flamboyant. (Just stating those leads to assumptions about whehter either alternative is accepted or considered good or bad.)

The other concern is that we know sometimes it leads to harrassment by others or they might be offended or think you're making a pass. I think we've all experienced that exclusion.

Now, I think we want those role models. I think we basically want the same thing when we talk about it. But none of us seem sure just how to be that role model. -- We're over-thinking this.

Be yourself. If it makes sense to say you're gay, or have a photo of your boyfriend or girlfriend, or show affection to them, or to offer help or advice, then that is fine.

Does that present the point well or clearly? Does that add anything new? I'm not sure.

[blue]

On second thought -- Maybe the reason we seem to have stalled and have a misunderstanding and yet it's still getting discussed, trying to hash it out, is that it's a really core issue we have trouble deciding. Just how should we, how can we, be role models? It seems like trying to find the answer has uncovered some frustrations and stereotypes for us.

Do we mention we're gay? Do we ask if we think someone else is gay? Do we show our affection? Do we offer advice? Do we risk mistreatment or misunderstanding or having harmful things spread around about us, that might impact on how we are at some place or with some group?

Is it a weakness, if we feel unsafe or unsure, not to come out or stand up for ourselves? -- Be really careful before you say, "yes, it is," because you probably remember what it feels like to feel unsure and unsafe, even after you'd realized you were gay (GLBT).

For the people reading (I hope you are reading) who are straight or who can't quite figure out what their feelings mean, I'd like to point out that some people would point to that and say, "see, that's why we believe it's wrong!" But that's too easy. That ignores that we are trying to agree on what the right thing to do is, to help people who don't understand how we feel. -- How I feel when I see someone I am attracted to isn't any different than how a straight person feels when they see someone of the opposite sex that they find attractive. The same goes about someone they love (romantically and sexually). I just didn't know how to accept that for a long time, because everything I'd learned said I wasn't supposed to be like that, that it was somehow not right. It isn't wrong. It just is different -- It's loving someone like you, plain and simple. Now, how can that be wrong?

[Tragic Rabbit]

My computer issues from Hell have not yet been resolved but I'm claiming them as my reason for chiming in so late. I've read the entire thread so forgive me if I get some ideas wrong or fail to attribute them correctly.

Overall random impressions:

I loved Gabe's posts, esp the nice long one later in the thread that was so eloquent and elegant. The Mail Crew are cool guys, I hope to meet them, at least online,sometime. Maybe they're allergic to rabbits. The married guys who love their wives and post, that's cool...sort of. I mean, its their lives but don't they have at least a little explaining to do to a younger gay guy who asks them Why? I mean, touchy seems a tad out of place. Guys closeted for decades, sure, I can understand and maybe I've done it here and there, I don't have a facial tattoo that says Queer but...maybe less defensive and more reality? Okay, there was no Internet but if you didn't know any other gay guys, dude, you were not looking is my opinion. And what's wrong with that guy on Are You Being Served? He's the most honorable character on that show, always nice to everyone and trustworthy as hell. He's NOT a bad role model. Random, I know this is all random and disorganized, sorry.

Not that writing and hosting and editing on these sites isn't something, I think it is. I think it IS providing some role models, both real and fictional. I can't tell you how many (I can't tell you how many because I've lost all my farking files) emails I've gotten that said that Angel or Gene or Bobby or Trey or someone in Drama Club was a role model, no kidding, despite their being fictional. That they helped someone in REAL LIFE do something scarey or just feel better in a situation. Gee whiz, Angel wouldn't fit the bill for some of the posters here, he's visibly gay and not ashamed to say it. Is he me? Not exactly but now and then in my life, maybe he was/is/whatever. I've also enjoyed meeting other author's fictional people: TLOT, The Boyfriend & sequels,For The Love of Pete, The Lifeguard, those stories caught my attention and made me WANT to write. More recently, other stories have introduced me to people that I either wish I knew or wish I could ask out. Are they role models? Some of their authors are str8 or married to women, so its wrong to say that someone like that can't be a role model, at least in fiction. Someone in the thread said he wanted guys to NOT make the mistakes he did, to NOT marry str8 girls and risk them being miserable or committing suicide--now that's a definite stance, a role model of a reverse sort and not at all out of place, I'm thinking. Still, does it address what Gabe originally asked? I'm not so sure, I'm still thinking but I do know that what he wrote touched some things I think about more than a little.

Aside: The constant references

to guys who are effeminate or not in (or seeking to be in) a 'commited relationship', guys who like rainbow stickers and parades just fine and guys who hit on other guys (eg. ask them out or otherwise show interest) has me the tiniest bit offended. I mean, get real. Guys show interest, they ask you out or touch you, what do you expect, monks? They're letting down the whole 'tribe' by being sexual? By being less than MarlboroManly? Gimme a break. Why do any of us have an obligation to be some kind of specific Log Cabin Republiqueer without whatever you see as flaws? Of course, that backs up the posters who say that they're just living their lives, and that's cool, I suppose. The thing is, it hurts me sometimes to read How To Live My Life from someone who lives with a woman and goes to PTA meetings...no offense. Its just that...well, that's a lot less helpful than some of the stories themselves.

Next thought.

Some guys ARE effeminate. My FATHER is effeminate, I'm told. Maybe its the imprint I expect in men, the behavior I first associated with being male. Isn't one of the problems here, the stereotypical expectations of men in the first place? Not only that you sleep with women but that you ACT and LOOK a certian way. When I was younger, I NEEDED to see men acting in different ways and I found my role models where I could. Some guys are effeminate when you meet them in bars or wherever, queer spaces, but aren't in the office. I know a pilot for American Airlines who's quite camp, though he'd not like me saying so, and totally closeted at work. Like no one else at American is gay...but its his life. He does a lot of volunteer work, is he a role model? Sometimes yes, is it a full time job? I don't know. I can understand why he lives the way he does but I wouldn't want to BE him, no matter how many times being a pilot got me laid.

And what's up with rainbows and stickers and that jazz? Sure, its stupid in a way but DAMN, why can't I sometimes be happy to be gay (more on that, below) and let someone else, who might also be gay, know that, better yet let someone str8 know that? YES, I have lost jobs, friends and family and had bad shit happen but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with ME, that means there's something wrong with the world and I wish it would change. Do I do anything toward that end? A little, now and then. I speak for groups, I volunteer for marches and crap, I hand out flyers on streetcorners, I volunteer my time and thought and, I suppose, my face and voice now and then a little bit. No big thing, I'm no activist exactly, but over time I might have made someone or two thinktwice and might have helped in a little bitty way some other person who is not str8.

It HURTS me that even in these forums, there's this assumption that we all have to be Model Fags or some HRC shit, that we have to be middleclass, white, manly, vanilla sexual beings and almost no one even notices that the assumption is THERE. Grrr! (If you don't think rabbits can be dangerous, you've not seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail).

When *I* was in high school (dramatic music swells, sounds of boredom and raspberries from the peanut gallery), the Gay-Straight Alliance was called the DRAMA CLUB (no sales pitch intended) and it helped keep me sane in an otherwise tedious black-and-white suburban world. Role Models? I found them where I could, closeted teachers I liked to think were queer, famous faces like Bowie and Boy George and other people who may not have said they were (or been) gay but were modeling a kind of Be Yourself thing that appealed to me, sexual openness and acceptance of whatever flavor. There was an actual Gay club in college and yes I went and yes I was scared to death...and met some friends from high school I hadn't seen in ages, it was pretty cool. No one acted fruity and no one had sex in the bathroom, it was just a club, a tad boring, so I never did a whole lot with it as I was more the party boy in those days. But it was there, which I appreciated.

Some of you saying you never met a happily married gay couple or whatever, maybe you need to get out more and I don't mean bars. Join a gay church or gay center, meet some regular people. Some are parents, some are couples, some are sluts, some are funny, some are ridiculous, some are leather and some are virgins. I mean...what's with all the stereotypes here of all places? What's with all the vitriol aimed at various segments of the tribe?

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not the nelliest jelly bean in the basket. Still, I don't make any effort whatsoever to be butcher than I am and maybe that's why I've had the negative shit that I have had, maybe its NOT why. I've done monogamy, but I'm not looking to do it again anytime soon. Why is it better? Why do I have to say I want that or that my fictional characters want that? Is that being a role model? If so, count me out. I like sex, sue me. Being in love is great but you lose sleep and worry a lot and then they skip out and steal the stereo so why is it the only thing I'm supposed to want? What's wrong with having friends and being casually sexual and going home to your cats? I love my cats. I'm only supposed to speak or hand out flyers if I have a ring on my finger? If I'm saving myself for Mr. Right? If I'm careful not to be too prissy?

A friend of mine, 40+ conserviqueer, finds me terribly entertaining but never, ever hestitates to insist that I help with whatever he's got going in the way of panels, speaking, flyers, rallies, discussion groups. I remember talking to him once, being more than a little annoyed that he thought he had to TELL me that my masculinity was not an affront to him, that my whatever, demeanor, was not preventing him from thinking I was an intelligent and useful spokesperson and that he liked me. I don't think he'd date me (I could be wrong) but...while I'm glad he appreciates me, I wonder why he had to make those statements to me, why he had to justify in his own mind including me in the political activities he organizes. I do see that he can see that role models don't come in only one flavor, I just wish he didn't have to work his mind around it to get to that acceptance. And this is our tribe? We must be cannibals...(no meat-eater jokes, please). Am I going to be voted off the Island for this post? Bit too preoccupied today to worry about so here it goes.

Ramble, ramble. Sorry, I'm trying to find my direction and have lost my compass. This thread is interesting but I'm not sure I like some of its presumptions. My mood is lousy today, forgive me if I sound mean.

Kisses...

TR

[Codey]

Sterotypes are real...other wise there would be no one to base them on. I don't believe Gabe or I condemned any segement of our community. If I did I also know I posted that I welcomed all faces of our sexuality. Our comments were about presenting the full face of our community to the straight world. It's the straight world that has problems with us, partly because of the incomplete picture of gays that they see or should I say, that we allow them to see?

You're remarks about the gay club at your college I assume were directed at my post about the one where we were. These men were all between twenty and twenty five years old. Champ was 13 and I was 14 at the time. Their remarks and suggestive propositions were not appropriate and in the case of the one that squeezed Champs butt was plain illegal.

I agree with you about role models but again we're getting hung up on definitions. A role model doesn't have to be a rainbow flag waving committed couple. A role model could be any one living his life successfully with out hiding behind a sheild of straightness. An example or two....the two room mates, doesn't matter if the're men or women, who give each other a good-by peck when they're getting into their cars to leave for work in the morning. The couple who've lived together for a while and are in a monogomous relationship could wear committment rings. When asked about them or the rings are brought up they could explain what the rings signify to them. A few instances like this and the word would be out in the neighborhood or among your friends. You don't have to be out to the whole world to make a difference by your example.

Now to the touchy subject of sex and meeting some one. For a bunch of old guys with experience you sure seem to need help with this. LOL

Ok....you meet some one at a party or elsewhere that you're interested in. What do you do? First you definetly don't just tell him you think he's hot and that you're gay. You need to be more subtle. Just introduce yourselve and talk about normal things. Somewhere in the convo the subject of dating or marriage will come up. If he says he has a girlfriend or mentions girls, it's a red flag, What he says though isn't as important as what you say. No matter what his answer is yours must be something along this line...No, I guess I just haven't met the right guy yet. His reaction will tell you the next step. If he if he leaves the conversation then he's probably someone you don't want to know anyway. If he said he had a girlfriend but sticks around to talk anyway then hands off. You may be driving away a potential good friend. If he doesn't have a girl friend and sticks around then the balls in his court and you have to let him take the lead. He still might be straight but gay friendly and would like to be a friend. If he's interested sexually then let him bring the subject back up....not you. He knows you're gay so you've done all you can until he decides to move forward.

Blue has started another thread and I posted there but think it would fit into either thread so I'm going to cheat and post it in this one too....mainly because my fingers are tired from typing. lol

As those of you who were following the 'questions' thread know, I said in my last post there that I was frustrated and was leaving the thread to take a breather. I felt like I was just banging my head against the wall to no avail.

.

Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me.

Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help.

No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it.

The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war.

What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change. All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to it.

It appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown.

Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us.

Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.

Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex. You can call it reproduction of the species, if you want to play word games, but it still boils down to sex. People say, when criticizing us, that since we?re not able to reproduce then, we are performing a perverse act. That is pure BS!!! Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us? There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!! Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex? The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*). God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert.

Ok....I hear you.....Codey?s gotten off thread again. Focus Codey...focus.

The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results.

We teens feel the risks are worth taking.

Codey

[Tragic Rabbit]

I'm hoping you confused my post with others or whatever but I'm depressed so I'm going to post this anyway. If your post was in response to mine, you didn't read mine, in my opinion. Still, I have a few comments.

Sterotypes are real...other wise there would be no one to base them on. I don't believe Gabe or I condemned any segement of our community. If I did I also know I posted that I welcomed all faces of our sexuality. Our comments were about presenting the full face of our community to the straight world. It's the straight world that has problems with us' date=' partly because of the incomplete picture of gays that they see or should I say, that we allow them to see?[/quote']

Stereotypes are NOT real, they are mental inventions, drawings in the heads of bigots that define what such and such person is BECAUSE he is gay...or black or a Jew. The fact that some black people ARE lazy or good dancers does NOT make stereotypes real, it just means some black people are lazy or good dancers, and more aren't. The difference is important and bears on this thread. You are saying that oversexed effeminate gays with no manners are what YOU have experienced and that was what, at one point perhaps, YOU saw as what being gay was (that might have been another poster) and that's what str8 people see, that its why they hate us.[i disagree on that, too, but that's another discussion entirely] Saying and thinking this a stereotype and I reject the idea that a str8 [or gay] bigot will simply discard his stereotypes because he meets or sees on TV someone who doesn't meet his expectations. Dude, he can't SEE you, he can't SEE the person behind the blackness or the gayness or whatever and that's what a stereotype is FOR, to keep someone from SEEING the person behind the caricature.

That gay people have stereotypes about gay people and black people about black people is ALSO true but slightly different in that it is rooted in not only societal images and pressures but in SELF loathing. I DO expect a certian degree of prejudice from str8 people about my sexuality and I don't like it, but when I get it from OTHER queers, I'm far more deeply hurt. I do not like seeing it in this thread, any thread, any story or anything at all, frankly and am not going to change that opinion. I will point it out when I notice it even if it makes me look like a prig or someone who is terminally uncool. NO, saying 'fag' and 'gay' but not MEANING homosexuals does NOT make it okay to say, its still wrong and still bigotry. Etc, examples ad finitum.

Stereotypes are BAD and need to be pointed out each and every time NOT so that the unalterable bigot can learn, he can't, but so that other people watching, some of good conscience, can at least have an alternative view to the louder one. When queers get all pissy because the leather boys show up somewhere or because so-and-so is the one to speak for a group but he's SUCH a nellie...I am unhappy. I am unreasonably of the opinion that people should be kind to one another and strive to accept even what they can't understand.

When marginalized people marginalize others, it sucks. Big time. The amount of racism I encounter in the gay tribe is NOT fun, not funny and not trivial. There is a REASON most of the places you go, if you go to gay places, are all white. This is bad and something that we, as marginalized people, are in a position to CHANGE if nowhere else than in our own heads. If someone points out that something or other is a stereotype, they are telling you to love yourself and your neighbor better, NOT to see caricatures instead of human beings.

You're remarks about the gay club at your college I assume were directed at my post about the one where we were. These men were all between twenty and twenty five years old. Champ was 13 and I was 14 at the time. Their remarks and suggestive propositions were not appropriate and in the case of the one that squeezed Champs butt was plain illegal.

No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking. However you point up the SERIOUS problem wiht what some of you seem to want, older gay men to be mentors and friends...hello, the risk of imprisonment is NOT a small one! Gays are scrutinized nowhere more intensely than when they are around underage people, teachers, scout masters, youth leaders are routinely fired for even the hint,the merest suggestion of impropriety. Hell, even holding your friend's kid on your lap can get you funny looks in our culture, its insane. I think a lot of adult queers would LOVE to do more than they do with youth but are terrified and RIGHTLY SO of prosecution. All it would take is one disgrunted, displaced parent or neighbor calling CPS and his or her ass is grass. So that's ONE thing. It sucks but that's the way it is. Now me, I'm too dumb to know when to be smart so yeah, I have taught, I have led youth groups, I have worked with teen clubs, I have teenage friends now, possibly more than your average adult, I'm not sure. If so, one reason is most definitely fear.

I agree with you about role models but again we're getting hung up on definitions. A role model doesn't have to be a rainbow flag waving committed couple. A role model could be any one living his life successfully with out hiding behind a sheild of straightness. An example or two....the two room mates, doesn't matter if the're men or women, who give each other a good-by peck when they're getting into their cars to leave for work in the morning. The couple who've lived together for a while and are in a monogomous relationship could wear committment rings. When asked about them or the rings are brought up they could explain what the rings signify to them. A few instances like this and the word would be out in the neighborhood or among your friends. You don't have to be out to the whole world to make a difference by your example.

I'm not sure what your point is here, I know tons of guys and women like this, who do this stuff. Its even in the news sometimes but mostly is just everyday. I've done this stuff, these aren't the fifties. Adults are doing those things all around you.

Now to the touchy subject of sex and meeting some one. For a bunch of old guys with experience you sure seem to need help with this. LOL

Ok....you meet some one at a party or elsewhere that you're interested in. What do you do? First you definetly don't just tell him you think he's hot and that you're gay. You need to be more subtle. Just introduce yourselve and talk about normal things. Somewhere in the convo the subject of dating or marriage will come up. If he says he has a girlfriend or mentions girls, it's a red flag, What he says though isn't as important as what you say. No matter what his answer is yours must be something along this line...No, I guess I just haven't met the right guy yet. His reaction will tell you the next step. If he if he leaves the conversation then he's probably someone you don't want to know anyway. If he said he had a girlfriend but sticks around to talk anyway then hands off. You may be driving away a potential good friend. If he doesn't have a girl friend and sticks around then the balls in his court and you have to let him take the lead. He still might be straight but gay friendly and would like to be a friend. If he's interested sexually then let him bring the subject back up....not you. He knows you're gay so you've done all you can until he decides to move forward.

I so love the sarcasm of your post. What's wrong with going up to a guy and telling him he looks good? Hell, I know *I* like it. Listen, some guy I just met starts talking about not having met the right guy yet and you can color me gone. Way too needy, bit on the creepy side unless he seemed to be saying it with a sense of humor. If he has a gf and tells you, yep, I'd agree, don't grab his ass. I'm less sure about waiting for him to bring things up, why can't you? I mean, maybe you're shy but I don't think this is the best advice. What if both were waiting for the other to suggest a coffee (or marriage, to use your example)? Wouldn't hell freeze over first? I agree, going straight, if you'll pardon the expression, for sex is only a good idea in the right setting, a party or a bar, perhaps, and only then if you feel like it. Still, guys hook up everywhere and without so much talking. If that's not your thing, fine, but I don't see that either way is the only way to go about getting to know someone however well or for however long you want to know them. I'm a big fan of just asking stuff, like, do you wanna have a coffee? Do you wanna grab dinner tomorrow? Can I have your number? What are you doing later? Like I said, I'm too dumb to know when to be smart. I figure all they can do is say no, so what the hell.

Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me.

Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help.

No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it.

Is this you or are you paraphrasing the thread posts? Have you read Joseph Heller?

The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war.

'Epiphany' is an excellent word. 'We teens' who and where wars, in this forum? Btw, I had agreed with Gabe's posts and that was WHY I posted, because I didn't care for some of the replies. Bleh.

What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change.

No, LIFE is change, nonstop until you die. That's the one constant and I'm sorry to tell you that turning 18 or 21 won't make anything different. No one will hand you a manual on Life and change won't stop happening.

All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to it

It appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown.

I do not agree that teens are more susceptible to change or more hurt by it, I think we all experience it, that's what Life is, endless changes and then you die. NOTHING stays the same and I think most adults know that, if they don't, I'm pretty sure that's considered a neurosis, either way, its unrealistic. Same for teens who crave sameness, its just not going to happen. Adults may give you a false impression when they romanticize some time in their or their culture's past as better in some abstract way but that's nostalgia, not reality or real memories. In the 1980's, Ronald Reagan had a deep nostalgic craving for the 1950's and what he saw as gentler, saner times and plunged this country into the beginning of a conservative downspiral that hasn't stopped.

In REALITY, the 1950's in America were a time of oppression, inequity and deep cultural divides: segregation was in effect, women were paid a third of what men were and encouraged to be 'homemakers' by which they did NOT mean architects. And being openly or proudly gay? Read the Naked Civil Servant, there was a guy who was damn open and reviled every day of his life because of it. True story, btw. That Reagan view of the 1950's was nostalgia and all humans are guilty of it at some time or another. The key is to just enjoy the moment, whatever it brings, and I'm working on that in my personal life. The thing is, you can't point the finger at people over 18/21 and say they are the cause although I understand the sentiment. In the 1960's, they used to say, 'Don't trust anyone over 30'...but is that a good position from which to ask for solidarity amidst the tribe? Divisionism is a bad thing and whenever you feel the urge to draw lines, lie down and maybe the feeling will pass.

Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us.

Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.

You know, reading that I'm tempted to agree but I'm also tempted to say, sotto voce: Easy for you to say. The things that tie someone to one place can be complex and not necessarily related to fear. I've lived a lot of places and haven't yet found one that feels like home. Other guys stay in the same place for family, for friends, for a job, for their house, whatever, why is one reason better than another? Its so easy to be superior and say, Move, to someone else but what are you doing in YOUR life to make it better? I mean, that's the only yardstick that matters, the one arena in which you can clearly see the field. Maybe change or improvement doesn't mean moving although right this second, I'd give anything for a ticket out of this country, or at least this state. Should I just pack a bag and start walking? Its a thought, I guess...

Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex.

This is something I vacillate on, whether my sexuality IS myself or whether its only a small portion. One thing is true, to bigots, it IS me, the fact that I have sex with men wipes out all other things about me, neutralizes anything good I ever did, negates any positive character traits or accomplishments. Phi Beta Kappa or Faggot, which is uppermost in such a person's mind when they see me? I've the feeling that I know the answer. So I've embraced that but I do see the arguement that there is more to me, there IS. Its just that the bigots of the world will never SEE that until something changes in their minds, or in our world. Though I wish with all my oft-mended heart that it were different, this world sees little beyond the black of a black man and the gay of a gay man.

'True Nature', I dunno about that term myself. I've always known I wasn't str8 but the rest, well, I'd like to think I was something else besides just a guy who likes dicks. I do embrace, usually, what is refered to in the media as 'gay culture', I liked Judy Garland and high heels before I could talk and while gaydar may be a myth, a finely tuned sense of camp is something almost no gay men seem without. I never learned to be butch, Daddy couldn't throw a ball or change a tire to save his life, so maybe I just fell into that category more easily than some, maybe I wasn't kicking as hard. The thing is, whether you accept or reject 'gay culture', whatever the hell that is, you have to like YOURSELF and, one hopes, whoever it is that you are calling your tribe. In fact, why not like all tribes, why not just accept others, failings included, and shoot for something more like humanity as a culture? I guess I'm wandering again...

Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us?

Gee whiz, did you have to go there? That's plain disgusting...

There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!!

AMEN!

Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex?

"God, look at her tits, I can't wait to take junior to kindergarten!"

The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*).

The purpose of sex is to have an orgasm. Hmm. Well, yes and no. I get a lot of other things from most sex, even the most casual, but yeah, orgasm/release is sort of the driving force sometimes. Still, seems awfully reductionist to say that's all it is, except for masturbation. What about people who don't have orgasms ever? What if you don't have an orgasm sometime, does that mean it was purposeless? What if it made you happy?

God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert.

Well, that IS the position of the Church. Masturbation is also a sin, presumably because it wastes potential persons. Betcha didn't know all those wadded up kleenex could send you to hell.

The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results.

We teens feel the risks are worth taking.

Codey

Well, I agree with that, I don't think we CAN change the str8 world's image of us if we don't like ourselves. And it'll take time anyhow but things do change, as I've mentioned, and sometimes for the good. Black people, gay people, Jews, are somewhat less subject to bigotry in daily life than fifty years ago and perhaps things will continue to improve. In the here and now, though, what seems crucial to me is that we not take aim at one another and if there is to BE a tribe, that we act like it and stop sacrificing what we see as our expendable tribemembers. Teen/Adult, Black/White, BDSM/Vanilla, Nellie/Butch, class differences...can't we all just be friends? Or at least, accept each other. Its called TOLERANCE. It doesn't mean you approve, it doesn't mean you agree, it just means you acknowledge that they have the right to think or live or be whatever they want and that them doing so won't do you any harm.

You don't get superpowers when you hit 21, you can't fix everything, you're lucky if you can pay the bills and be reasonably content. Maybe we should all tend our own gardens? [Wasn't Voltaire cool?]

Peace.

Tragic Rabbit

Rules to live by-

1.Even if you and I don't agree, I respect you and we can coexist in peace.

2.Your way may not be my way, I will work to welcome your differences.

3.I will celebrate the diversity between us.

4.I will work through the changes life brings.

5.I will challenge narrow mindedness.

6.I will try to keep my relationships with others uncomplicated.

7.I will try to welcome different viewpoints and learn from them.

8.I realize that others can teach me something new about myself daily.

9.I know that the world is much bigger than you and me.

10.I know that the world is much more interesting with you and me in it.

-[Jewish] Anti-Defamation League

[Codey]

Maybe reading all the posts in a thread before you start criticzing would help your depression.It's pretty obvious that you haven't been following the thread or reading the posts.

You wrote; "No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking."

The explanation was in one of the posts and I am really bothered by what you imply with your question. I have no problem with anyone in our gay community but I have a freaking big problem with pedophiles!!! You seem to be placeing the blame on me and Champ with out even knowing the story.

I find this very disturbing to say the least.

Is this an example of the tolerance you think I don't have or is it just a less polite way of saying what I'm begining to feel from some others? "Be quiet kid and let us adults worry about handling the straights....after all, look at the freaking great job we've been doing so far."

Codey

[blue]

Last night I wrote a response to moderate a bit. But I wound up going off on one item myself, and that is screwy, because I want to get over my old self. So I deleted my own post, which I hardly ever do, being a basically wordy and egotistical so-and-so. :grins: I'm a mess, deal with it; I think I am, finally.

Everybody here is trying to be open and honest about deeply held beliefs and feelings. That may reveal personal insecurities, past hurts, or preconceptions. Every now and then, it may also reveal some great observation, some profound truth, or maybe just something that's danged funny. Please try to keep that in mind and not get ticked off at each other.

-----

Codey --

I really hope no teen here gets the feeling any of the over-21 crowd here are saying, "go 'way, kid, ya botha me." If we do, call us on it, like you just did. Make us notice, so we don't make you feel unwelcome or ignored or talked down to.

Tragic Rabbit --

First, I've been hoping your computer problems would be resolved enough so you could join the thread. It helps to hear someone else's opinion, including why they think we're mistaken.

But please don't take it personally or direct it personally toward someone else.

Also, don't direct it towards yourself, as I often do.

[blue]

At the risk of doing the very thing I'm warning against, please read my comments below as my personal opinion, not as a moderator.

Guys closeted for decades, sure, I can understand and maybe I've done it here and there, I don't have a facial tattoo that says Queer but...maybe less defensive and more reality? Okay, there was no Internet but if you didn't know any other gay guys, dude, you were not looking is my opinion.

Yes. True enough. Closeted for a long time, defensive and with a need to vent to people who might understand, because there are few people yet with whom I feel I can talk about these things in person. Working on it, in between other "it happens" stuff.

Wasn't looking? To do that, you need the chance to look, the self-awareness, self-acceptance, and self-confidence in yourself and your sexual feelings. You need people who'll say yes if you get up the balls to ask. You need friends who'll ask you with the reassurance so you know they mean it.

It bothers me that sometimes the implication is that it's so easy to understand oneself, easy to accept what society wrongly and too often says is wrong, and easy to hook up for "just sex" or "true love."

Huh? Don't we all know better than that? Surely we know it isn't so easy to go through that.

Having said that, I don't think Tragic Rabbit meant it quite that way. I really think he understands better than that.

[Tragic Rabbit]

Maybe reading all the posts in a thread before you start criticzing would help your depression.It's pretty obvious that you haven't been following the thread or reading the posts.

You wrote; "No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking."

The explanation was in one of the posts and I am really bothered by what you imply with your question. I have no problem with anyone in our gay community but I have a freaking big problem with pedophiles!!! You seem to be placeing the blame on me and Champ with out even knowing the story.

I find this very disturbing to say the least.

Is this an example of the tolerance you think I don't have or is it just a less polite way of saying what I'm begining to feel from some others? "Be quiet kid and let us adults worry about handling the straights....after all, look at the freaking great job we've been doing so far."

Codey

This is so...well, I'll omit the word I want to use in kindness, that I'm going to reply here and then delete all my posts later. Obviously, I never said that, I asked what an underage non-college student was doing on a college campus, a reasonable question from what I recall as nonstudents weren't allowed or encouraged to attend oncampus clubs. Whether that makes it your 'fault' is entirely your own invention, I'd certianly imagine that someone you met at a college function would assume you were older than you were. The main problem with your post is that it addresses a tiny comment in two long posts which were, again obviously, not addressed to you specifically and hence half my frustration with this forum and thread. I won't be back after deleting my posts. I don't know you and don't expect to but the world and this forum aren't about you. As to reading the thread, I specifically said I had and twice said that you seemed not to be reading my own posts. I'm over it, and will delete my posts later but wanted to comment here. I only visited the thread on someone's suggestion and found what I consider to be the ubiquitous problem of stereotypes and bigotry within 'the tribe'. This kind of throw-away reply post completely removes any interest I have in participating in this 'discussion' further.

Tragic Rabbit

[blue]

blue ~ as admin

Alright, guys. No personal attacks, please. That just makes two people madder and makes others mad and confused too.

I am OK with some pretty heated discussion. I stepped in earlier to remind people not to make it personal. They each said they were fine with the others and the discussion went on fine.

I have asked both Tragic Rabbit and Codey not to escalate things.

I have warned Codey that he can be blocked temporarily or permanently if he continues doing that.

I have asked Tragic Rabbit not to delete his posts in this thread or others.

This forum is here so we can all work through the issues we have "questions" about or have trouble with. But keep in mind the other person is also risking him- or herself by opening up to talk. We don't know all the things about someone that explain why they say and do what they do.

You want to be a tribe, be better than people who hate without reason?

Then act like it. Show some tolerance and compassion for each other -- especially when you don't agree or do not understand.

"I do not agree with you, sir, but by God, I shall defend to the death your right to do so." -- Voltaire, if my memory and translation are correct. He was imprisoned and exiled for his opinions, of which the French Crown did not approve.

[Guest rusticmonk86]

You all need to calm down. Stop bastardizing the fighting spirit in which this post was created with.

Has anyone noticed that all of the melt-downs seem to begin with flame wars?

WTF?

I know you older folks grew up in a time where you were supposed to keep your mouths shut. In a time where you were expected to stay silent and in the background. Baby boomers and hippies. My elders tell me you can't help but still feel that way now. It's been so much a part of your way to be in the shadows. But I know you've wanted to find community when you were younger.

I go through the same feeling of isolation, too. Even when I am with my peers. And, yes, I suffer from depression frequently. I've got three gaping holes in my face and I'm relying on Vicodin to help take the edge off the feeling-fact that my jaw is being popped off of my skull.

And maybe, when I grow up, I'll be just like you. Except my way has always been the fight. Maybe one day, I won't need to fight any more. I can't wait for that day.

My elders tell me to try and understand where all of you people come from. To understand why you are so ruled by silence. And to embrace you as someone who has been silenced for so long. Because you were scared to speak. Because you would get beaten or worse. It was someone from our generation who was tied to a fence after being beaten to death. That reminder is something that will always hang in my mind. It's such a fresh and imperative reason for me to keep my head down. And an even better reason for me to speak up.

My elders have told me to pave the way for you. They've told me that I am fighting not two wars, but two battles at the same time. And they are both equally as challenging, for they are both battles in the minds of the people around me. The first battle is one with my allies. The people who stand behind me, but who are too scared to stand just as proudly beside me. My first objective is to make you feel okay about yourselves. You are the people who have been hiding in your closet through a holocaust that has always seemed without end. You are the seeds that have lay dormant through a bitter winter and are just now finding the sun in everything around you.

While the second battle: the one against the minds of those who seem quite opposed to our individuality and expressions of love seems so overwhelming that you continue to hide and wait for the sweltering heat of the summer to awaken you. For that one spark in the brush that will finally split your prickly cone in two, and release you unto the soil that was always yours.

But you're looking for that spark in the wrong place. You're looking for it outside of yourself. It needs to come from within. You need to decide for yourself, whether or not you will bloom. Because that sun is something we're all trying to grow towards. And the only way we'll get to it, is if we grow together, and fight off this oppressive canopy.

I don't think I made it clear enough last time. I should have stated simply: The war we fight is the war of unity.

And we won't get there if we cut each other's roots, because one of us is growing higher than the other. Or because another is trying to steal the sun. Don't you see, we all have enough room to grow? Wasting our water by fighting over who'll get there first won't help us. And it will only make us more tired when we finally reach the sky.

What happens if our way becomes the fight and there's nothing more to fight about? Do we choose the peace we have tried so hard to achieve? What happens if we divide amongst ourselves even more and decide the other side is the parasite?

What happens if the people we are trying so hard to become a part of eventually look upon all of us as a parasite and wipe us out like every other different creature? What would we have been doing to prevent that? What are we doing now to promote it?

This was never supposed to be a discussion about stero-types. If anything, Codey and I have just touched upon our cofnrontations with stereo-types and how we found them to be untrue. I like that you feel so strongly about this subject, Joey. And I like that you are taking the idea of "tribe" into account of moderation, Blue. Codey, I love that you stand up for truth and in front of your words.

But I still want to know what the fuck you are going to do about these questions?!

WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT WORDS? WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE SEE US AS? WHY ARE WHY ARGUING ABOUT "WHY"?

What if some people don't like use because they actually do think we are pedophiles? What if people don't like us because we are sin mongerers? What if others don't like use because they've never actually met one of us before? What if we don't have mentors because the older guys are scared of being seen as pedophiles?

What if everything you are deciding to argue about is true, but you're all yelling so loud that you can't hear it?

Hello?! Hi, this is the gay community . . . yeah. DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STOP SLITTING YOUR OWN FUCKING THROATS AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO FIX THIS MESS?!

ARGUE ARGUE ARGUE, ME ME ME, MY MY MY, YOU YOU YOU, BITCH BITCH BITCH.

Oh, yeah, ha ha ha! My thread! Kind of offended that you've wasted half the space here to argue.

And don't tell me that this issue is bigger than I make it out to be. We've been there before, remember? Don't tell me that there are more pieces to this puzzle than meets the eye. I've been working on this fucking puzzle for SEVEN FUCKING YEARS NOW! And, no offense, but I think I know where I'm coming from.

This is probably the must cut-and-dry thing since tobacco. That's right, I went pre-recorded time on your ass.

This problem is sex, drugs, stereo-types, influences, role models, the army, government, social standards, gender roles, economic standards, the rich white people factor, slavery, oppression, religon . . . . This problem is everything. It's all of what you've been saying it is and more.

So how about you take your chunk of the pie, Joey (AKA TragicRabbit), and work on . . . Keeping those youth groups around. And making more of them. And making them better, and more confidential. How about teaming up with someone else to make a gay foster home, or homeless shelter?

Aussie_GW: you're already doing some of this, but team up with Joey and other gay adults and create a forum where you all can get together and talk about how it was for your growing up? And about what being gay now means to you? Also, start talking to some kids. fidn out what their lives are like.

AJ: If your not looking for tribe, maybe you should take to reading Ginsberg to the starving people on the street. the ones whose bodies are so infected that they are eating themselves alive. Where there is no hope anymore. And the words "Oppertunistic Infection" are just the eventuality that one has to face as the consequence to be shoved aside and strong-armed into silence.

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,

"dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

"angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night ..."

All of you expand your minds. Meet new and different people. Volunteer for GLBTQ centers. Not just with kids. Attend a writing workshop. Or a support group. Meet some transgendered people. Start a gay movie night. Beer and popcorn, softball. Something.

Hell this is support for a lot of you. And I have to be honest: I've taken this venue for granted. And I want to apologize for that right now. If you're too scared to go out and there and find some people you can meet face-to-face. Or if the people you've met have been unkind, then stay here.

A lot of stereo-types are based on fear. On first impressions. BAD first impressions. And they exist, Joey. (I still refuse to even think of this as a backlash against Stonewall, and that's just something that some of us will just have to agree to disagree upon.) But the one thing I know we can all find as a constant, is our need for a safe place to voice our opinions, beliefs, fears, fallacies, hopes and dreams. And I'm just glad that there are places like this one, right here.

Our battles should not be with each other. Our battles should not be within ourselves. Our battles should not be against differing opinions, or against diversity. When I'm finished with this post, I want the fighting amongst us to stop. And I want everyone to post what they can do to help their situation. I want everyone who's been following this to be realistic with themselves. I want just one thing you can do. Just one. No matter how big or small it may be. I'll start.

To help my situation and to make my fishbowl (the world I live in) better, I will:

1. Continue to help the youth group I volunteer for evolve, and cultivate a sense of social responsibility and empowerment within every member of every age.

2. Continue to appear at and hold workshops for students, teachers, professionals and people of all walks of life so that they can see me as a gay person who does not directly fit into the narrow-minded stereo-types perpetuated by today's society.

3. Do all that I can to make sure that my friends and family are safe from hate and prejudice, and stand proudly beside everyone who is different.

4. Volunteer for a hospice or other community project that provides services for sick or disabled GLBTQ people.

AJ: I know my comments and suggestions for you may seem abrasive. But I really think people who don't have a sense of tribe can benefit from helping those who have been abandoned along the way. So it wasn't just for you. Nor were my comments for Aussie_GW or Tragic Rabbit. I was trying to bring my point home. You can all make a difference. And you all matter. Whether you think so or not. You just have to believe in yourself liek I believe in all of you.

Call me a bleeding heart.

But don't laugh at me.

I'm doing my best to set things right.

And to get you all to believe:

You can too.

--Gabriel Duncan

[Graeme]

Gabriel,

Thank you.

If I've understood you correctly, you are acknowledging that not everyone can do and be everything. Not all of us, young or old, can be the person who stands up to a potentially hostile world and says "Here I am. This is me. I'm not hiding it, anymore."

But all of us have our place and things that we can do. If, for whatever reason, we can't be that front person standing up to the world, we can provide them the support they need to stay there.

It is healthy to try to push the boundaries of what you think you are capable of, because you will sometimes find that your limits are not what you thought they were. But we all do have limits; limits placed on us by our personality, where we live, and the people around us. For some, those limits are less restricting than others.

I will disagree with you on only one point. Words are important. I have been in more arguments than I care to remember, simply because we had different interpretations of the same words or phrase. If we do not have a clear understanding of what our "key" words mean, we are in constant danger of either internal fighting over them, or being ambushed from outside over them.

I will give just one example, one that I posted earlier. What defines our "community" or "tribe"? We want unity and solidarity, but if we don't know who that is with, we can be trapped by hostile forces. Recently in the USA, there were news articles about legislation in one of the states that proposed banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. One opponent of that legislation said it would open the door to pedophila, necrophilia, bestiality, incest and other "perversions".

My first reaction to this was, "Yeah, but most, if not all, of these are already illegal in their own right, so they don't count." But then I remembered that it was only as recently as 1997 that homosexuality was decriminalised in the Australian state of Tasmania.

As I said, words, and agreeing on what they mean, is important. Otherwise, our message gets diluted and confused. I believe this is part of the problem of what happened to this thread -- it lost it's way because we didn't understand the same things for the same words.

Thanks again, Gabriel, for bring it back into focus.

Graeme.