Gay - why do people think it's so different?

[blue]

The "Questions" thread made me wonder something else.

Just what *is* it about being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender that people, GLBT or questioning or straight, find so confusing or, for some of them, frightening or wrong?

I've seen comparisons to race or various cultural differences. I've seen comparisons to being left handed or eye color. The racial prejudice analogy makes some sense, but I don't believe it is similar enough to cover it. I have heard people of various races say that drawing the comparison didn't do either case justice.

So why is it so different in people's minds, even our own minds maybe, to be gay?

I think it is because it is much more about instinct and feelings that are so deep-down that people have no idea how anyone could be different, and those are intangible. You can't ~see~ an instinct or a feeling. You see how someone reacts, which is an effect. You don't see the cause, which is how he or she feels, how they love, deep down.

[Codey]

I think you're right Ben. People can see the differences in race and even in some ethnicities. What you can see you can understand a little more. Our differences are on the inside and can't be seen. I think the hatred is based on the fear of the unknown. People can see black skin but they can't even imagine why we are like we are. What they can't see, they fear. What they fear, they grow to hate.

We also can only feel our differences. When we look in a mirror we see a person just like everyone else. It's the knowledge we have of how we feel different inside that confuses us. We don't know why we're different and we fear that difference for basically the same reason that people fear us.

Codey

[Graeme]

When I came out to my wife, one of the questions she kept asking was "What does it mean to be gay?"

I kept answering with the simple response of being attracted to someone of the same sex, but she didn't seem to accept that answer. Eventually, I learnt what she was really asking: "How does being gay make you different?"

Some of the things she wanted to understand was how it was to grow up hiding my feelings; how it affected the way I interacted with others.

In short, she wanted to know the psychology of a gay person, not the emotional/physical differences.

This is a lot wider question than the one I was answering, and it's one that I don't have an answer for, because it brings into play the interaction between the gay person and the society in which they live. This varies from place to place, even within the same country, as attitudes vary from region to region.

The only thing I can add at this point, is something I said to her when we discussed a long term plan to have a foster child. I told her I'd like to foster a gay teenager, because:

"I want that child to have the life I was never able to have."

Graeme

[Tanuki Racoon]

So why is it so different in people's minds, even our own minds maybe, to be gay?

It is, IMHO, because your sexual orientation ivolves your very most intimate acts. Things that aren't normally discussed in polite company, and things our culture perceives as 'dirty' -- so if you aren't in the majority (normal) you are by default in the minority (abnormal).

There is my quick, conscise explanation of why people thing it is "wrong" or "different"

There is an obvious fallacy in that logic, but most people don't actually practice proper logic.

-- wbms

[Thirdeye]

I think you're right Ben. People can see the differences in race and even in some ethnicities. What you can see you can understand a little more. Our differences are on the inside and can't be seen. I think the hatred is based on the fear of the unknown. People can see black skin but they can't even imagine why we are like we are. What they can't see, they fear. What they fear, they grow to hate.

I agree, and very well put. The only thing I can add is people tend to look down or avoid things different then themselves . We live in a socity where our differences are picked apart and people are labeled and put into groups based on money, looks, they way you think, feel. We let are our differences drive us apart, instead of bringing us together as it should. We look at the differences in people, instead of looking for the bond we all share. When that difference is something like a feeling or a instinct that other people don?t feel they just can?t see why we won?t or can?t turn it off. They don?t understand and in a lot of cases they don?t want to understand. Its easier to hate than to try accepted that someone is different.

[aj]

I don't know that fear of difference is enough to drive the vitriol that we all encounter out there. I'd like to propose another reason:

Who are the people who oppose equal rights and tolerance for LGBT people? If you look at them all, as a group, you notice that there seems to be no common thread. But I think this is the common denominator: fear of change.

Whether you're a redneck who believes gay love jus' ain't natural, and giving credence to such things would change the natural order of the world, or a conservative politico whose power is based in maintaining the status quo, or a right wing christian fundamentalist who believes that equal rights for gays would change a societal order that God laid down, the common thread is fear and hatred of change. Different motivations, same fear. What is the most common argument we hear for opposing gay marriage? It would destroy (change) the insitution of marriage, which is one of pillars upon which our western civilisation is founded. Hogwash, of course--heterosexuals need not look beyond their own behaviour for the death of marriage as an institution, but that's what we hear.

Combine that with fear of difference, and i think you've got a pretty clear picture of what we face.

cheers!

aj

[blue]

Hmm. OK, guys. Fear of change, fear of difference, fear of the unknown. Fear, fear, fear.

I get the feeling, though, that something is still missing. We've probably heard these in some form before, although you guys stated them clearly and simply. Even aj's slightly different idea fits the picture.

Is this a topic where we all agree? No one has some very different thing to add or disagree with? -- I'm not hoping to stir the pot, just wondering if there's something important still missing.

(Yes, I know that "with" ended with a preposition, lol.)

------

Notice that Thirdeye pointed out that people pick apart, separate, everything based on difference.

Oh no, can't be his friend, he's gay. Don't like her, she's not my race. Him? He talks funny, why can't they learn English? She's wearing a headscarf and he's wearing a turban, oh my. He doesn't believe this or that, he's so strange. And that woman? Did you see how she dresses? Look at him, his body isn't shaped right.

We can read that paragraph and shake our heads and say, "ain't it awful!" but we all do it about something. The strange thing is, we can also come together and do great things and change the way we believe.

Crazy hew-monz. -- So try to overcome it.

"We've got a long way to go. Gotta get there quicker."

[Codey]

As those of you who were following the 'questions' thread know, I said in my last post there that I was frustrated and was leaving the thread to take a breather. I felt like I was just banging my head against the wall to no avail.

.

Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me.

Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help.

No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it.

The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war.

What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change. All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to it.

It appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown.

Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us.

Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.

Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex. You can call it reproduction of the species, if you want to play word games, but it still boils down to sex. People say, when criticizing us, that since we?re not able to reproduce then, we are performing a perverse act. That is pure BS!!! Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us? There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!! Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex? The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*). God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert.

Ok....I hear you.....Codey?s gotten off thread again. Focus Codey...focus.

The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results.

We teens feel the risks are worth taking.

Codey

[aj]

I've struggled with this post...written it four different times. I knew there was something that needed to be pointed out about Codey's argument, but couldn't quite put it into words. So I've given up. I'm not going to write anything, I'm just going to refer you all to a website that i think explains what i'm trying to say a lot better than i can: http://web.utk.edu/~gwynne/maslow.html. Having worked in psych a lot, I think it's safe to say that Maslow is right on the money in a lot of ways.

Read the discussion on Maslow there, and i think you'll start to see why people don't give up their homes for political acceptance. If you're not sure how it's applicable, I'll be happy to provide some commentary later.

cheers!

aj

/* Edited by blue as admin to correct website URL. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. :D ... Except at this time of evening, it appears none of the links in Maslow's page go anywhere. Try in the daytime. */

[Codey]

Read the discussion on Maslow there, and i think you'll start to see why people don't give up their homes for political acceptance. If you're not sure how it's applicable, I'll be happy to provide some commentary later.

If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.

AJ....I never said you should give up your home for political acceptance. I'm not asking for political acceptance. I'm asking for human acceptance. If you are in fear for your life then you are in the wrong place. Self preservation is the strongest of lifes characteristics. Fighting isn't always the answer to a threat. That's why we have the fight or flee instinct. We cant always pick the battles in a war but unless we're ambushed or betrayed we can pick the battlefield. It would be stupid to pick a battlefield where you knew you couldn't win and would probably die.

The link you posted doesn't work for some reason.

Codey

[Codey]

I don't know how I did that...you guys figure it out.

Codey

[carolinascribbler]

Hmm...didn't work for me either. Try this one:

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/maslow.html

[Codey]

ok.....call me stupid but I don't see anything there that refutes my ideas. According to him the only three things or needs as he calls them, that supercede sex are air, water and food in that order. To my mind, those three needs are all needs for self preservation. But even if you allowed each of those a seperate niche in the driving forces of life, sex would still be the fourth most important. His table of deficit needs all fall below the primary needs of food, water,air and sex. Are you trying to say that those deficit needs would over ride the primary needs. His theory states that if the primary needs aren't met, people may never have their deficit needs realized and will lead unhappy lives.

How does that refute my argument that we must be comfortable with our sexuality and show others that our sexuality doesn't threaten them?

Codey

[blue]

I'll try the link later; I corrected the link aj gave.

We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go.

If a minor is being abused, he or she has the right to tell someone in authority, such as the police or child welfare / children's protective services, or a school counselor or other trusted adult about the situation. -- There are also teen hotlines and there are shelters. Calling or showing up and reporting the abuse may be risky, but it *does* document and let someone else know that minor said something was wrong.

AJ or others, please correct any mistake or oversight on my part. I realize the solution isn't always that neat, and I realize parents can dispute or refute their child's claim, but my understanding is, it still has to be investigated.

------

Pat Robertson is the individual you meant. AFAIK, Pat Robinson is prob'ly a nice guy... or girl. Hmm. D'ya s'pose *that's* a big part of Robertson's problem? -- OK, I'm kidding on the square there.

------

Hmm. But that wouldn't explain why many teens hide their orientation. Plus, a lot just plain aren't sure or haven't clued in yet. (Yes, that's possible.) -- No, I guess I'm being too literal. Codey did qualify that some, so he didn't mean "all" teens deal well with change or deal well with their sexuality.

[Codey]

what I meant was we have no control over where we go

we're still dependent on adults to decide our futures. No kid should ever stay in an abusive situation because he felt he had nowhere else to go.

Codey

[EleCivil]

Hmm. But that wouldn't explain why many teens hide their orientation. Plus, a lot just plain aren't sure or haven't clued in yet. (Yes, that's possible.)

Very possible. Myself, I didn't fully come to terms with it until...well, about ten months ago, at 17, after I had graduated high school. Kind of a funny story, really...I was walking down the street, backwards (I'd spent about three solid months walking backwards, "Just because I've spend the last seventeen and a half years looking straight ahead" - weird phase, I'll admit) when this nine year old girl stopped me and asked completely plain-faced, "Hey, are you gay? Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just wondering."

I said something along the lines of "Why would you think I'm gay?"

She says "Well, you're always walking around backwards and juggling. It's kind of a rumor that all the kids my age are talking about, 'the backwards gay juggler'. No offense or anything - no one means it as an insult."

So of course, I say "No, I'm straight.", but in the back of my mind I'm thinking "Well, look at the facts - you've never had a girlfriend or been attracted to girls, and you ARE attracted to guys. What the hell more proof are you waiting for?"

So basically, I went all through high school believing that I was straight...even though I was most definitely not. Maybe that's some kind of defense/survival mechanism in itself - you know for a fact that you'll get kicked out of the house and disowned by your family if you're gay, so you won't let yourself believe it, not even when you're reading gay literature and checking out guys.

The thing that got me, though, is the way all the neighborhood kids apparently associate walking backwards and juggling with being gay. I mean, that's not even one of the stereotypes. If we're talking associating "gay" with "different", that's a pretty good indication of where things are going. But on the plus side, it looks like all the kids in the area also look at being gay as not being a bad thing, but just different, so there's a plus.

[blue]

ROTFLMAO. Well, a good belly laugh, anyway. I think my butt's still attached!

I tried to post in the Questions thread, then decided I was being screwy, and deleted it, frustrated at myself.

So I come innocently walking by, and see EleCivil talking about going through a phase walking backward. Somehow, the mental image alone...man, you must be a trip to know. LOL. -- Hope your friends appreciate the friend they've got.

Yes, I did get the actual point of your post, too. I just really liked the details. Thanks, you made my night!

[aj]

In fact, Codey, you're not talking about sex. the need for sex can be satisfied with your hand, or a toy or any number of other ways that don't involve another person at all. What you're talking about, in the larger scheme of things, is the right to pursue a relationship with another person without undue interference from the people around you, and that falls above the need for food, shelter, clothing and safety and security (and yes, sex too). And that explains why so many people remain closeted: they feel that their safety and security will be threatened if they come out, and the need for societal acceptance and a life lived in honesty fall above a need for safety and security.

Further, i would argue that what you're asking for is indeed political acceptance, if you understand that 'politics' really means "the rules by which a society lives," just as ethics are the rules by which an individual lives his/her life.

BTW, i do not disagree with you analysis of the sophistry practiced by the Christian right wing...there is no doubt in my mind that calling a loving relationship between two men or two women perverse based solely on the gender of the people invoved is, itself, extremely perverse and deeply hypocritical. Love is love is love, you schlemiels--get over it!

cheers,

aj

aj

[Thirdeye]

Really its not that its different, it just some people don't see it as normal. Of course these are the same people who think Black skin people are below whites, as are Jews, Mexicans, or anything or anyone that does not fit into the "Normal" section. The sad thing is it seems all the steps and progress the human race seem to make in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's seems to be at a stand still, if not going backwards. There?s no way anyone can say at least in the United States that we are very progressive in tolerance of difference. Chris Rock touched on some of this in his last special. Since 9-11 the accepted racism in this country has gone through the roof, 1st it was F' the foreigners and that was alright, then it was F' the French and that was alright, then it was F' the Arabs and that was alright, now its F the Fags, and people better open their eyes because soon its going to be F the niggers and Jews, and any other non-god fearing white male that?s living in sin, its always has been in the past, and history repeats itself. Its really getting to be a mess out there, the hypocrites are out in full force trying to make peoples lives a living hell. Anyone whose read my profile knows I live in Florida and knows about our Hurricane problems this year. Well where I live we get a direct hit by Charlie and had tons of damage, I actually heard someone tonight say that was gods way of punishing the queers and others that don?t believe in Christ, and people agreed with him. These are the types of thinkers we are dealing with. The backwoods inbred, banjo playing jerks, and the scary thing these are the ?normal? people who are voting on our future, and a few of them may be the leaders getting votes. Sorry to go off on a tangent, I've just had a very crappy week and really hate people right now.

[blue]

Hey, Thirdeye.

There's a lot of truth in what you said. I'll have to catch Chris Rock's special. Yes, we're seeing the bad side of conservatism and religious intolerance and just plain stupidity. It *is* senseless, the prejudices people have. Yes, we are at risk of losing ground towards equality, the Dream of judging someone on their character instead of their appearance or different beliefs.

But take heart. There are lots of people out there who are committed to the things you want to see, and they are working to stand their ground and make progress. There are more progressive people now than there were in the 60's and 70's. There are plenty who feel the same way you do.

The people who claim God would send three hurricanes to Florida to purge it of homosexuals are ignoring what Jesus said about such claims, and they are ignoring the simple logic, why would God cause massive damage across entire states and island countries, including large numbers of straight people, if he was really worried about gay people. I don't believe he'd send hurricanes to make people support gays either. The only way is for people to be convinced in their own lives, in their own miinds.

So don't let people who claim it's God's retribution get to you. They don't know what they're talking about.

I have friends in Florida. I know from experience what a single hurricane or tropical storm can do to the Gulf Coast.

Don't let 'em get to you, Thirdeye. The fact that you care says more for you than what they might claim against you.

[blue]

Last night, I heard the term "queer space" on one of the two weekly radio programs for the GLBT community here. For those who don't know (I didn't) a "queer space" is personal space, shared space, or an actual place where GLBT people can feel comfortable being themselves. On one hand, I understood the idea immediately, new as I am, and I like the idea. On the other, what a statement it is that the term "queer space" exists, that I can understand its meaning with one sentence. And on the third hand...there are other fingers. :cough: Sorry, couldn't resist. We do have a Thirdeye, after all. :D

I am not going to go on a rant about, "oh, ain't it awful." -- I just want to say that, even in a perfectly integrated and non-prejudicial society, it would still be good to have the chance to be somewhere with "just the GLBT people," where they'll understand what that's like. That is not being prejudiced. That is recognizing that there is a time to be together, and a time when it's good to be separate. It's no different than when women get together for "girl talk" or men get together for "time with the guys." (Isn't it funny that everyone does that, but that they don't see that *liking* your friends is *similar* to *loving* them?)

Please don't think I'm going for the "separate but equal" or the "stay separate" mindset. I profoundly don't agree with those. I do not want to be invisible or closeted. I want to be me, for others like me to be themselves, and I want us to be integrated within the overall community, accepted and respected for what that means, openly.

Hmm. I think I like this flag-waving, activist side of me. Yeah, seems healthier somehow.