US Presidential Election

[DesDownunder]

Okay, I've been waiting and thinking hard about what I would like to say here. Some of you may not like at all what I am about to say, but here goes.

In my modest opinion, and as dearly as I would love to see legal gay marriages or civil unions, I think we (the American gay community at large) were trying to fly before we learned how to walk or run. What do I mean by that you ask.... well my answer is this.

Did any of you realize there is no federal law preventing discrimination in the workplace, housing, or education based on sexual preference or gender identification!!!!??? That's right... NONE. In other words, If your employer chooses to fire someone simply because they are gay, there is no federal law prohibiting that. IT'S PERFECTLY FARKING LEGAL IN MOST STATES!!!!! :stare: Granted, 14 or so states and some cities have legislation prohibiting such discrimination, but it is a haphazard patchwork that often has no teeth. Right now, in most states, including my own, gay and transgendered Americans have fewer protections against discrimination than African Americans had prior to 1964.

Federal Legislation with the acronym ENDA has been proposed as late as last year, but was defeated by one vote in the Republican controlled Senate, and never taken up by the House because of a PROMISED veto by Emporer George II.

So basically, what I am saying is we put the cart about 100 miles out in front of the horse on this issue. Let's get some basic human and civil rights and protections, then go for the gold rings.

I say all this with much love and respect for all of you, but I really thought it needed to be said.

Hugz,

Rick D

P.S. Basic info on ENDA can be seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_No...crimination_Act

I wasn't aware of any of that Rick. Good points. I don't really see anything to get upset about in your observations.

Here in Australia, even though we have Federal and state equality in the work place, etc., there are still something like over 50 pieces of legislation that discriminate against homosexuals. Both political parties have promised reform, and then side-stepped the recommendations of committee after committee which have made recommendations to remove those discriminatory laws and regulations.

Basically full equality is being held up by the political maneuvering of right wing conservatives.

There is a strong movement by the religious right seeking to re-criminalise sexual practices which are claimed to be against their beliefs.

Such beliefs should never be allowed to remove, or impinge on, our human rights.

[Richard Norway]

I...There is a strong movement by the religious right seeking to re-criminalise sexual practices which are claimed to be against their beliefs.

Such beliefs should never be allowed to remove, or impinge on, our human rights.

I didn't realize that in Downunder you are also experiencing the same religious intolerance that we're experiencing here in the US. Our founding was from extreme religious groups and their beliefs have always been a part of our heritage, good or bad. I guess, I had expected something different from your historical beginnings.

Rick made a LOT of sense, and I too think that we, as a movement, have screwed up. The American public is slowly moving in our direction, but it takes time for those changes to take place. We tried to push gay marriage before the American public was ready, at least to vote on it with majority. It'll happen, but by pushing too early, we set ourselves back by allowing the opposition (right wing conservative religious fundamentalist, ignorant, unthinking, blindly following bastards...sorry for the disgust) to mobilize. Now, it'll take some more time, but I do feel that it will happen, even in the short time that I have left.

[DesDownunder]

I didn't realize that in Downunder you are also experiencing the same religious intolerance that we're experiencing here in the US. Our founding was from extreme religious groups and their beliefs have always been a part of our heritage, good or bad. I guess, I had expected something different from your historical beginnings.

Rick made a LOT of sense, and I too think that we, as a movement, have screwed up. The American public is slowly moving in our direction, but it takes time for those changes to take place. We tried to push gay marriage before the American public was ready, at least to vote on it with majority. It'll happen, but by pushing too early, we set ourselves back by allowing the opposition (right wing conservative religious fundamentalist, ignorant, unthinking, blindly following bastards...sorry for the disgust) to mobilize. Now, it'll take some more time, but I do feel that it will happen, even in the short time that I have left.

In Australia we have both an export and import arrangement with nearly every other nation's restrictions on intelligent thought.

Richard, I have come to realise that no nation is free from primitive acceptance of superstitions made into doctrine.

Our job is to make sure that freedom to be rational, loving and compassionate becomes a major resource for every individual human being, regardless of their indoctrination. That might take a week or two longer than I have left.

[JamesSavik]

captainrick- I've made this very same argument many times.

I think that it is a very serious problem for us that "gay marriage" is the only gay rights issue that most people have ever heard about. Very basic legal protections would be a God send for most gay people in the country who stay in the closet out of fear of serious discrimination like being fired or losing their housing.

To most people, gay marriage sounds frivolous and silly. Those same people WILL understand discrimination and just might support our cause.

My sincere condolences to our friends in California. I'm sorry that you were disappointed- again.

[The Pecman]

My sincere condolences to our friends in California. I'm sorry that you were disappointed- again.

California AND Florida AND Arizona.

The protests and demonstrations are also going on in San Francisco, and there was news coverage of hundreds of angry gays congregating (an appropriate word) outside of the headquarters of the Mormon Church. The Church is denying that they were the main cause or supporter of the anti-Gay marriage propositions, but public records reveal they put more than $20,000,000 just into ads in California alone.

This thing ain't over. Next time, gay marriage supporters are going to have to make sure we have minorities like blacks and Hispanics on our side. The experts are saying that as much as 70% of the black vote was against gay marriage, and 52% of Hispanics voted against it as well (mirroring the entire vote). It all stemmed from churches, who have the mistaken belief that if gay marriage is approved, they're going to be overrun with homosexuals who will demand their right to be married in their house of worship -- a charge that everyone has denied will happen.

Ironic that two minorities who have been discriminated against for over a hundred years would try to put down another minority group. I read an editorial today that made the analogy that this is like a kid getting bullied at the playground, then happy and relieved to find that another, smaller boy has arrived so that there's an easier target to attack. "At least they're not attacking me" seems to be the philosophy here.

Goddamned bigoted bastards...

[Richard Norway]

The Church is denying that they were the main cause or supporter of the anti-Gay marriage propositions, but public records reveal they put more than $20,000,000 just into ads in California alone....

The hurt that was caused went a lot further than you think. Funding for many worthwhile organizations was pulled to send to California to counter the monies that the church (notice I wouldn't capitalize that word) had been sending. Equality New Mexico lost it's Executive Director because the promised funds for her salary were diverted to California. We have a legislative session coming up in January that will be addressing a Domestic Partnership bill. We lost by one, YES ONE, vote last time, and now we're going up against them without the leadership that is so needed.

[Trab]

I read an editorial today that made the analogy that this is like a kid getting bullied at the playground, then happy and relieved to find that another, smaller boy has arrived so that there's an easier target to attack. "At least they're not attacking me" seems to be the philosophy here.

Of course the irony of this is that nobody seems to see that it is the church's own diminishing membership numbers that may be partly to blame for their bleating and anxiety. They themselves are desperate to keep their members coming in the doors, and a 'good cause' has been shown to do that.

I think on a basic level it comes down to 'turf wars'.

[captainrick]

Treb, Richard, Pecman,

Now is the time for cooler heads. Minorities nor even these religious zealots are the true enemy. I am also tired of seeing members here and at sister sites condemning all religion. It saddens me greatly. There are many noble and righteous religious leaders who are sympathetic to gay rights.

No, the true enemy is ignorance and fear. So many believe that somehow we "choose" to be gay, and that if we would just see their way of thinking we would simply "choose" not to be gay. They somehow fear that if we're not "cured" of homosexuality, the "dis-ease" will spread. The only cure for ignorance is a desire to learn and education. Violence, or even civil uprising has never cured ignorance... it only feeds it and re-enforces the fear.

No, "fighting" back will never achieve the goal of true equality. Barack Obama just proved that.

We must set good examples, educate the public, and send positive messages. Gay marriage or civil unions is an admirable goal, but as I said in my earlier post, it's too soon. Lets get some basic civil rights and "acceptance" not tolerance. Then anything can be possible. Don't be blinded by ends until we have achieved the means.

Hugz to all of you,

Rick D.

[JamesSavik]

Now is the time for cooler heads. Minorities nor even these religious zealots are the true enemy. I am also tired of seeing members here and at sister sites condemning all religion. It saddens me greatly. There are many noble and righteous religious leaders who are sympathetic to gay rights.

No, the true enemy is ignorance and fear...

It's hard to fight ignorance and fear™- you can't grab up abstractions and kick their ass. For some reason ignorance & fear™ are always hiding behind tax exempt clerical robes.

[Trab]

I'm not too sure why I've been lumped into the call for 'cooler heads'. I don't even think I attacked religion as such, and I'm certainly not hot over things. I'm puzzled, and a bit disturbed, but that's about the extent of it for me.

Truthfully, I'm much more concerned with the attitudes towards autistic kids and adults, even the higher functioning ones like AS (what I have) than gay rights. The right to have places that are not filled with over stimulating scents (perfumes), noises (boom boxes and background music), lights (flashing neon and fluorescents), and chaotic patterns (in the name of art there are often stomach churning displays) is much more important to me. I can live with not having public displays of affection with a guy. I can live without same sex marriage (even though I don't need to concern myself over it, since I live in Canada). What I can barely tolerate is the continual assault on all my senses almost wherever I go. I also realize that we cannot expect society to change things for autistics, since we are a small minority, but there is something just so very wrong that most won't even acknowledge that there is a problem at all.

I think for me the frustration about the gay thing isn't even the discrimination, but the nearly universal feeling that we shouldn't even think that the discrimination is wrong in the first place, because obviously we aren't 'normal' and shouldn't even expect to be thought of as equals. Does that make any sense? I think I'd rather be respected as a person and treated poorly than disrespected as a person and treated with magnanimous contempt (if that's even possible).

[Adam Donaldson Powell]

Is it not prudent in these times of strife to look for and accentuate possibilities for unity and healing rather than to continue to promote a divisive competition of relative "truths"?

TRUTH IS A WHORE.

Surely, truth is a whore in ambush;

scenting the trail of the seeker

with anticipation and illusion.

Quite unashamedly,

she splays her loins to reveal

treasures of self-discovery

to the passionate.

Feasting ravenously upon the carnage

of words and revelations,

the believer plunders the bitch

with lustful satisfaction.

Ah, but how content he is to

finally conquer truth.

For now that she has been impregnated

by judgment, he may possess

ignorance more completely yet.

- by Adam Donaldson Powell

... and

WHILE WE WAIT ...

Patiently - we endure,

desperate to believe in God, justice and humanity.

Repeatedly - we suffer

from our own ignorance and immobility.

Admirably - we martyr ourselves,

tranquilizing pain with saintliness and esteem.

Inevitably - we avenge,

using the very tactics of our aggressors.

Ultimately - we are shunned

by all who thought we were extraordinary.

Typically - we wait

for the world to discover its misjudgment.

Ironically - we learn nothing,

and neither forgive nor forget.

- by Adam Donaldson Powell

[DesDownunder]

For me, it is a declaration of individual human rights, to not be subjected to another person's or group's, set of beliefs against my will.

That is for me a self evident truth.

It is simple rationality that he who proposes something has the onus of proving it.

That is called the scientific method.

If someone says being gay is genetic, show me the proof.

If being gay is caused by an environment, show me the proof,

But if it is claimed that God says being gay is wrong, don't show me the scripture as proof, until you have shown me the proof that God exists.

That is not possible. All that can be shown is the belief of God's existence. And that is something I must have the right as a person of free will, to choose to believe -or not. Until I choose belief in God, the scripture is not a law of mine, and therefore I should be able to live my life without being hounded by other people's beliefs in such scripture.

In like manner I choose not to impose my agnosticism on those around me other than to make the above declaration of my human rights to live my life without being the subject of an inquisition.

I admit I am a unusual agnostic/atheist in that I don't go around trying to convert people to my way of thinking. I am quite happy for people to believe what they wish provided they let others do that too.

I would prefer therefore that while religious discussion is not prohibited on the forums, that the forums are not used as a mission for conversion to any religion. It is quite possible to discuss religion without it becoming a crusade. The study of comparative religion is a valid subject and one which has a strong literary appeal in many stories.... And marvellous poems, such as Adam Powell's, which he just added.

[captainrick]

I think for me the frustration about the gay thing isn't even the discrimination, but the nearly universal feeling that we shouldn't even think that the discrimination is wrong in the first place, because obviously we aren't 'normal' and shouldn't even expect to be thought of as equals. Does that make any sense? I think I'd rather be respected as a person and treated poorly than disrespected as a person and treated with magnanimous contempt (if that's even possible).

Trab, that is exactly what I have been trying to say in my last two posts. WE MUST be accepted as equals first. We must be given the same protections from discrimination as other groups and minorities (i.e. ENDA). The way to do that is by setting positive examples with a UNITED front. Quoting from President-Elect Obama. "Together, YES WE CAN." THEN and only then will we be treated as equals, and then and only then will we be able to achieve the admirable goals of gay marriage or civil unions and other basic rights others enjoy.

Des, I did not intend to try promote any religion at all, I was merely stating that it is wrong to condemn all religions or those who believe in them because of a few ignorant fools who refuse to see the truth That is that all humans ARE created equal and ARE entitled to the same basic human and civil rights.

We have a unique and extraordinary chance now with a new leader who appears to be compassionate and a democratic congress whose leaders express views of progressive leadership. We simply need to step back, take smaller steps to achieve the means to get the ultimate goals and do so with a united front and by setting positive examples whenever possible.

hugs,

Rick

[JamesSavik]

We have a unique and extraordinary chance now with a new leader who appears to be compassionate and a democratic congress whose leaders express views of progressive leadership.

Democrats in Congress Wary of Overreaching

Crawfishing already. Pathetic.

[captainrick]

Democrats in Congress Wary of Overreaching

Crawfishing already. Pathetic.

James, my old dear friend and colleague:

That is exactly why I said we need to pause, back up, and take smaller steps. We have been so blinded by the ultimate goal sought by so many, that we have ignored the more basic road necessary to get there.

ENDA was defeated in the Senate by a single vote when a then Republican-controlled Senate voted strictly on party lines.

ENDA wasn't even taken up by the House of Representatives ONLY because of a promised Veto by the Bush White House and what was then insufficient votes to over-ride the veto. ENDA would grant the gay, lesbian, and transgendered people in this country the same basic guarantees of basic civil rights and protection from discrimination given the African Americans and other racial minorities based on race in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. ENDA IS an achievable goal now. THAT in turn would be a basis for overturning in Federal Courts the inane constitutional amendments to state constitutions in these various states including our own Mississippi, as well as California, Arizona, Florida, and others prohibiting gay marriage as they discriminate against gay and lesbian couples on the basis of sexual preference.

Patience, perseverance, and unity my old friend... and we will succeed. "YES, WE CAN!!!!"

Many, many, sincere hugs;

Rick D.

[The Pecman]

I am also tired of seeing members here and at sister sites condemning all religion.

You misquote and misunderstand me. I'm condemning self-righteous, ignorant fundamentalists who have zero tolerance for people who don't believe as they do.

There are plenty of churches that have no problem with gay people or gay marriage. There's dozens of churches in West Hollywood that have gay ministers, and some of them are leading the protests.

Religion as a whole isn't the problem. Overzealous Mormons and Catholics are the problem.

[The Pecman]

But if it is claimed that God says being gay is wrong, don't show me the scripture as proof, until you have shown me the proof that God exists.

My personal God says being gay is OK.

He tells me he has a much bigger problem with bigoted people who act like a-holes.

[DesDownunder]

Des, I did not intend to try promote any religion at all, I was merely stating that it is wrong to condemn all religions or those who believe in them because of a few ignorant fools who refuse to see the truth That is that all humans ARE created equal and ARE entitled to the same basic human and civil rights.

We have a unique and extraordinary chance now with a new leader who appears to be compassionate and a democratic congress whose leaders express views of progressive leadership. We simply need to step back, take smaller steps to achieve the means to get the ultimate goals and do so with a united front and by setting positive examples whenever possible.

hugs,

Rick

Rick, sorry if you thought my 'declaration ' was aimed at your post. It may have seemed to be preemptive, but I want to avoid a factional dispute on religious matters becoming the focus of the thread. Also I took the opportunity to attempt to clarify a position of the tolerance I deem necessary towards maintaining healthy discussions that touch on religion without infringing on individual rights.

I think we have a very multi-cultural community at AD Forums, and the last thing we need is to argue amongst ourselves as to who has the right religion. Our literature, will touch on the religious zealots from time to time. It can't avoid it. It is thus important that we maintain a calm and steady approach to any discussions without propaganda that could inflame desires to heatedly argue the merits of a particular belief. There are plenty of other forums on the net for those discussions.

So far, no one has transgressed the line I have tried to show as being acceptable while maintaining freedom of speech. This to protect everybody's right to their beliefs in the peaceful and objective environment of our forums. At the same time the importance for freedom to discuss subjects on comparative religion should not be denied. It's a tricky area to maintain without being accused of prejudice.

I am as thrilled as anyone else at the election of a leader who appears to be sensible, literate and compassionate.

Your arguments for a united front and setting examples to achieve equality are as insightful as they are progressive and encouraging of everyone's human rights.

[Richard Norway]

Very well said Des.

Okay, here's something for discussion. I'm a very religious man, but have a real problem with the church, whichever one it is. Churches are run by people. Religion is run by faith, and religion has nothing to do with denomination. That's a label that people get into for convenience.

I really don't care, nor should you, what you think about what I believe. That's me and is not open for evaluation. But like Des pointed out, the "church," and all that that means, is.

The Church is most assuredly a heated topic. and all that means to us. Maybe we should start a new thread (or topic) to continue this discussion. This is an exciteful topic, and I think it's worth pursuing, but under it's own name.

[The Pecman]

Well, again: Richard, you're trying to lump all religions and churches into one thing. They're all very different things.

To me, the overzealous fundamentalist Christians are just as intolerant and wrong-headed as fundamentalist Muslims or anybody else. The moment a church tries to tell me, "oh, and if you don't believe the way we believe, you're gonna burn in hell," I'm outta there.

On a related note: I once had an argument with an author here about the nature of morality and gay people. I was surprised to learn that, though he's written some well-received gay fiction, he personally believed -- in agreement with his religious faith -- that all gay people are inherently immoral.

I was aghast at this, and spent several days trying to convince him that just because someone was gay doesn't necessarily mean they're immoral. To me, morality is a much bigger issue, like stealing, causing violence, cheating, lying, hurting people, causing trouble, and so on. If you break no laws, mind your own business, and keep your sexual acts private, I don't see how this is immoral in any way. I've had only one sexual partner for the past 20 years, and we're still together (unlike most of the straight couples we know). I don't doubt there are many thousands of other gay people just like us.

But even if we weren't monogamous, I think there's a million times more heterosexual people having sex with different partners every single day. Even then, I wouldn't be so bold as to call them "immoral." If it's consensual safe sex between unmarried adults, this isn't immoral in any way. It's their business.

I think the bottom line is that there are several huge religious organizations out there that have major problems with anybody who has sex for purposes other than procreation. The Mormons are big on that. (I can recall a long conversation that Howard Stern once had with Donny Osmond about oral sex, and the former pop star insisted he'd never had it in his life, and wouldn't dream of asking his wife for it.) To me, that's the big issue: Sex for fun = immorality, burn in hell, do not pass go.

[Richard Norway]

Well, again: Richard, you're trying to lump all religions and churches into one thing. They're all very different things.

Actually, Pec, I was trying to make a distinction between religion (faith) and the church (dogma). But you're right in that like everything else on this planet there are extremes at both ends and one shouldn't generalize. I'd place the fundamentalist Christians at one end and possibly Buddism at the other.

It's unfortunate that people get faith and dogma linked. To many, their chosen dogma dictates what their faith is. Whereas their faith (belief) should find a dogma (church) that supports them or just not find a church and believe what they want.

But here again, maybe I'm presupposing that people will actually think.

[The Pecman]

I'm not big on dogma, Richard, but I do have a couple of Siamese catmas that are starting to piss in my hallway. Drives me crazy.

I hope you at least see my point that extremism of any kind leads to trouble. Everybody's gotta have more tolerance. That's all I'm asking.

[Cole Parker]

Whereas I see no reason at all to be tolerant of cats that piss on the carpet, or worse yet, in the back of the closet where, by the time you find it, it's too late. You have to move.

Now I have a dog, an older Labrador. Some people would say, get rid of him and get a newer model. These same people tend to run their personal lives that way, I've noticed. But I can't do that. So I keep him. He's become a bit achy, of late, and I've been dosing him with Prednisone, which makes him feel like a puppy again.

Unfortunately, this does not manifest itself only as an absence of aches. He seems to have reverted to puppy habits as well.

But his he doesn't hide in in the closet, and it doesn't smell like cat pee, an especially noxious odor that can be detected fifty feet before entering the house.

It's easy to find, too, as Labradors seem to go about four gallons at a time.

So I've had to lay in a new supply of towels as it takes about a dozen to soak it up each time. Thankfully, he only does this occasionally.

But he's still better than a cat.

C

[Richard Norway]

...I hope you at least see my point that extremism of any kind leads to trouble. Everybody's gotta have more tolerance. That's all I'm asking.

Now that is something we can agree on, down to every letter, word and punctuation mark.