Gay Rights.. OK peoples.. this is EXACTLY what I been talking about!

[captainrick]

Read this Article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/19/u...-_n_152325.html

particularly the part that says : "According to some of the declaration's backers, U.S. officials expressed concern in private talks that some parts of the declaration might be problematic in committing the federal government on matters that fall under state jurisdiction. In numerous states, landlords and private employers are allowed to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation; on the federal level, gays are not allowed to serve openly in the military."

These assholes in charge of U.S. policy AGAINST gay rights a/k/a the Republican party that voted down the proposed federal ENDA legislation that would have made such discrimination in the workplace illegal, by one republican vote voted straight down party lines.

BEFORE we start harping on the gay marriage issue like we were beating a dead horse, let's all unite to get basic equal rights for gays in the workplace, in housing, in education, etc. etc. etc. Gay marriage or civil unions will inevitably follow in time, but we must first end being treated as second or even third class citizens.

Hopefully a new democratically controlled House and Senate will make these changes, but it is up to us... each of us ... to put up a united front.

This week I was very disappointed in President Obama's choice of Rev. Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration. Also he has not yet appointed any openly gay persons to any significant posts. This leads me to believe that while this new President may be "tolerant" he may not necessarily be pro-active to gay rights. He will need encouragement and support in this area. I don't want to be "tolerated" I just want basic respect and equality for all..

[Trab]

It is so ludicrous. It is non-binding, for goodness sake. Sign it, then, over time, work out the issues. By not signing, there won't be any effort to work out the issues at all. It's interesting that the US position on signing is the same as that of the most radical of Muslim nations.

[Richard Norway]

It's interesting that the US position on signing is the same as that of the most radical of Muslim nations.

I believe that what you're saying is that the US position is based on a religious belief (from you know who). Here's what I can't get my mind to understand. This nation was founded on religious tolerance. Persecution of their religious beliefs are what drove people here. And now, our president is acting like his religion is the only one that is graced by God. Sorry...that's just, well...bullshit. We don't want a theocracy, but feel that we've been served one.

Sometimes I feel that I should just move to Canada, but that would be giving up. No, I'm here.

Richard

[Trab]

Yes. Radicallized religious fervour. It is scary as heck. I hear that Australia is going the same way.

[DesDownunder]

Yes. Radicallized religious fervour. It is scary as heck. I hear that Australia is going the same way.

There is no doubt in my mind that the intolerant sector of both the left and right wing parties are running rampant, here in Australian politics.

I know three lawyers and two psychiatrists (socially), not gay, and who stand steadfastly horrified by the local trend to religious, bigoted influences in both Federal and State laws in Australia. They also see a trend to theocracy in other countries.

Sandra Kanck is a left wing Australian Democrat and has just resigned from parliament to allow her replacement time to settle in before the next election. Local GLTB magazine Blaze reports her resignation which includes the following excerpt from their article

I have been criticized for speaking against these assaults on human rights.

The growth of religious fundamentalism in parliament, as reflected by the presence of Family First and conservative Labor Party MPs is just one warning of the potential for a new era of intolerance.

Same sex rights are worth fighting for, as are all the other human rights. But when one right is attacked, unless we fight back, all other rights are also under threat.

Needless to say many of us wish that this controversial woman had stayed in parliament.

Apart from a great deal of sympathy with those who wish acceptance over intolerance, let alone seeking every opportunity to encourage freedom of sexual expression for consenting adults, I think it is important to understand that political parties are capable of backtracking whenever it suits those who manipulate the power in the party room.

At the present time I am writing two very different fictional stories that reflect on many of these issues.

Unsuited as I might be to do this, I am doing so because worldwide there is a shortage of discussion let alone actual works in the literary arts, which so often in the past have exposed injustices of their times as well as the horrors perpetrated by bigoted and closed minds.

For this reason I won't enter into too much discussion on the issues raised here, because it will detract from my line of thought of which I need every ounce I can muster, to write the two stories. (Despite "accusations" by some very nice people, I am not an intellectual giant.)

I would plead with you all to encourage the troops, to not become the enemy we despise, by the way in which we fight injustices.

[captainrick]

You guys just don't seem to get it....

I didn't mean to start another discourse on religion or religious intolerance....... It's much deeper than that. In California, it was simply political ignorance of those fighting that ridiculous proposition and failure to be inclusive of blacks and other minorities that helped pass the gay marriage ban.

WE CAN NOT just sit on asses and whine about our lack of equal rights. We have to put forth a positive image of ourselves and work together to cross cultural AND religious barriers that stand in the way.

It can be done as the following link (article) clearly demonstrates:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6491162&page=1

However, condemning all religions, Christians, etc. because of the intolerance of a few is self-defeating. It's up to us to educate and convince those that are intolerant and full of hate or fear or both that we pose no threat to them, their families, or society in general. We just want equal rights. Period.

Hugz,

Rick

[DesDownunder]

Rick, you might read the above article on Sandra Kanck before claiming we 'guys don't get it', (which by the way is never a good phrase to stimulate reasoned debate.)

Sandra seems to feel much the way that I do, in that the right wing conservative fundamentalist religious influences have infiltrated even the Left wing of Australian politics to the detriment of human rights including amongst others, GLTB freedoms to be treated equally within the culture.

Hate and fear are indeed the root cause of the reactions of those who threaten cultural and individual freedoms.

This often feeds the desire for power over others.

That this is a global threat to all human rights, seems to be self evident to me.

That we can moderate or even perhaps defeat such a threat by peacefully, projecting positive examples of our own lives and lifestyles, seems undeniable to me, but achievements will be neither quick, nor without setbacks.

That human rights of all flavours can only be achieved under a secular society, seems equally obvious to me, but such a culture must also permit freedom for personal beliefs without harming those of others.

No one said it was easy.

[captainrick]

I agree that Democratic governments should be secular. That is the basis of much of the United States Constitution and its prohibition against state sponsored establishment of religions and the first amendment rights of freedom to worship as one chooses or not at all. This is the "wall of separation between church and state" as the phrase was coined by Thomas Jefferson. With that said, I also am forced to admit that unfortunately conservatives have inextricably linked certain religious views to the issues of gay rights. That's why their attempts to deny equal rights to persons of different sexual orientations will ultimately fail. At least in this Country, assuming our Constitutional government actually survives long enough.

However, I don't think a totally secular society is either realistic or even desirable. This world is very diverse and it is that diversity that makes us human. Whether Jew, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, New Age, or whatever, the world would be an incredibly dull place without any religion. Are there some religions that will never accept or embrace homosexuality? Of course there are. But also remember that religion has inspired some of the world's greatest art, music, literature, and philosophy. Yes, a secular world, where we have given up any belief in a creator, guiding force, or reason for our very existence would be a dreary and dull place indeed.

I meant no disrespect btw, and apologize if it came across that way, it's just that I get frustrated when the point is lost.

Hugz,

Rick

[Trab]

My view, quite simply, is that there is a basic human need to believe in a creator. I also believe there is a basic human need to dominate others. Because it is obvious to pretty much anyone that not everyone can be at the top, this latter need is changed into a 'pecking order'. I would even venture to suggest that the pecking order need for dominance is not exclusive to human, but applies to pretty much all which don't lead a solitary existence. The two needs meet, in that having the most powerful creator on your side puts one above the others with a lesser creator.

Although it may sound cynical, I don't think we have any hope of ever overcoming this basic need of dominance over others. The best we can hope for, as any minority group, is to have a few years of peace to live the way we want to before some other person or group decides to exercise some more dominance and crush us again.

This all has nothing to do with sexual orientation, and focusing on that will get us nowhere in the long run. As long as there are people who are not absolutely equal in status and all abilities and features, there will be someone higher up, telling someone lower down how to behave. Our inner peace is dependent on us recognising our position, and fulfilling our dreams within that reality. To aim for more is laudable but is perceived as an immediate threat to those higher, and any actions will be attacked with great vigour.

The only ones who don't really care, and can do as they please (for the most part) are those on the very top, although they are going to always be worried about being dragged from their lofty perches. I don't think there will ever be peace, harmony, and wonderful lives for all, or even for most. It just isn't in human nature.

Okay, I admit it. I AM cynical.

[DesDownunder]

Thanks Rick. I understand your frustration, It's just that I tend to overreact at the phrase 'you guys don't get it' because of instances of my workplace bully.

A secular society is, for me, a natural progression from superstition but this cannot be forced on people, which is why I stated '...a culture must also permit freedom for personal beliefs without harming those of others.' Secular society does not have to mean, prohibited religion.

It is not a matter of a world devoid of religion being a dull place, but that a world in which any religion curtails freedom of thought is a dangerous place for human rights, let alone free thinkers. We already live in such times.

As far as the arts are concerned, I am confident that the creative spirit in mankind is inspired by the wonder of life, no matter whether it is couched in religious or secular terms. Life without the arts would be very dull, if not devoid of reason for existence, but that begins to make a religion of art itself.

I cannot confirm Trab's statement of the need for either a belief in a creator or that dominating others is a basic human trait.

It is here that we touch on the nature of belief rather than seeking truth; rather than pursuing and accepting life.

Historically, what we have not been able to explain, we assign to a force imagined outside of ourselves.

When love is thwarted we seek to dominate or be dominated.

It is when we abandon the inner truth of our nature to love, that the void so remaining is filled with desire for power over others.

It doesn't have to be that way if we will see the love we get is equal to the love we are, the love we nurture, from within each of us.

But that is diametrically opposed to some religious dogma.

It is not the cynical that is a worry, but mistaking lack of love as being human nature certainly is, because that defeats the chance for us to realise wondrous as opposed to wonderful lives. There is a difference here that escapes those who think being at the top is more important than simply being human.

Those are my thoughts, and I really must go back to my writing.

[captainrick]

Okay, my final word on the topic isn't even going to be my own, but this amazing article. EVERYONE READ THIS!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag...w_b_152717.html

[rick]

Rick;

That man (Ostertag) should run for office. He makes more sense to me than those beating the drum for something I'll likely never participate in-even if I ever found the "right" person. We do have bigger problems, and its high time we worked on solving them.

Equal rights? Absolutely.

Gay marriage? Meh, big deal.

Thanks for the post.

Rick

[Richard Norway]

I really have to agree with brit18uk, in that the gay activists are taking gay marriage too fast. I believe the real change for us will only occur generationally. What I mean is that bigotry is ingrained on people at a very young age and that they will not change from these deep ingrained beliefs. Oh, they may hide it because new civil rights laws are enacted and they don't want to go to jail, but that still doesn't change the deep way they feel. What happens is that their kids see the new way that their parents act and adopt that stance as the ingrained way they believe. This change then continues on with their offspring.

We saw it in the the African American struggle. People really didn't change the way they were brought up until the Civil Rights legislation in the 1960's, and people were forced to act differently. It became politacally correct to be inclusive.

As the general public becomes more aware of our plight and begins to feel that we are normal, the better chances we have of eventually achieving real and lasting human rights. I believe that the public is just about ready to accept civil unions or domestic partnerships, but they are still hung up on the word 'marrage.' So we won't get it until they accept the idea that marriage can be civil as well as religious. That may take another generation, which is passing through high school right now.

We'll get there. Unfortunately, I may not see it, but the gay kids going through high school now will. And that's what I work for.

[Cole Parker]

I'd like to propose an oppositional viewpoint.

I think civil rights legislation that advanced the causes of blacks taught Americans something. I think a lot of people thought racial disharmony was a fact of life and would not, could not be changed as it was taught from birth and had become an entrenched value.

Then we had legislation that forced blacks and whites together. They met on the playing fields of business and school and the armed forces and sports, and lo and behold, changes in attitudes began to occur. Whites who had been taught and firmly believed that blacks were an inferior race were forced to interact with them, and learned to their dismay that those they had considered inferior were just like they were. Blacks had the same desires and abilities and faults and shortcomings they did. Within a generation, white kids who had been taught prejudice with their mother's milk were friends with blacks and were scoffing at the benighted opinions of their parents.

Things had changed because legislation had forced change and with the change came awareness that the world didn't end when blacks were allowed the same freedoms and opportunities as whites.

Legalizing marriage and thus and forcing acceptance of gay couples will, in my mind, have the same ameliorative effective. Religious people will be brought to acknowledge that the institution of marriage isn't ruined by allowing more people to enjoy it. It will be a shock to some, but to those who put intellect ahead of emotion, it will become apparent that the institution is being made stronger, not weaker, by including gays in the mix.

The civil rights legislation that brought blacks into the mainstream of American life made us stronger. Any move that does the same for gays also makes us all stronger as a people.

I won't for a second argue that being allowed to marry is more important than being allowed housing and jobs. All civil rights are important. But I think gay marriage is, too.

C

[Trab]

After Canada legalized same sex marriage, there weren't any comments by anyone that I know to the effect of gays being just like everyone else. However, after the media reported the first gay divorce, there certainly were comments like, "Gee, they're as screwed up as the rest of us."

[JamesSavik]

It is moot point anyway. No major gay rights legislation will ever see the light of day in the united states.

the religious lobbies are too rich and powerful and gay rights groups make raving jackasses of themselves at their pride rallies.

we have met the enemy and he is us.

[DesDownunder]

It is moot point anyway. No major gay rights legislation will ever see the light of day in the united states.

Gee James, that seems a degree pessimistic to me. It brings back memories of the statement "no person of colour will ever be the president of the US."

I grew up in an era where a homosexual encounter ran the risk of the participants being arrested and tried, with a sentence of two years hard labour for a guilty verdict. Gay is no longer a disease to be treated by medicine or psychiatry in my (Aussie) culture. I can now live with my partner without having to hide behind justifications of just being 'good mates' or 'waiting till the right girl comes along.' Hell I don't even have to think of it as a phase anymore. (Not that I ever did.)

However, I have also had to reassess my own concepts for my dissent with the unjust laws (now repealed) as well as the whole concept of deviation from "the norm" which formed my attitude for my own survival in the years of a hostile and unwelcoming culture. The surprise being to discover that I never did feel guilty for whom I am, except to keep up appearances for the sake of survival in my culture. However, that culture is changing, has changed and I see no reason for it not to continue towards its logical end of acceptance for all human beings to mate with, and love whomever they wish over the age of consent, without condemnation or judgement.

That there are still places and cultures which obstruct such acceptance is patently obvious. Will they all come to be accepting of human rights, let alone equal rights for homosexuality? The answer here is not yes or no, the answer has to be that we must assume it is possible for it to become possible. The answer is a process of becoming accepting, and perhaps, not reaching acceptance in anything but idealist terminology.

Accepting ourselves is as important as getting others to be accepting of us.

the religious lobbies are too rich and powerful and gay rights groups make raving jackasses of themselves at their pride rallies.

we have met the enemy and he is us.

That the bigoted religiously minded are powerful and that many gays are still bound by self-loathing or have only a narrow (and personal) objective for cultural assimilation, is not denied.

Both those religious lobbies and gay rights groups, do not represent the majority of all religious minds or of all gay people, let alone the majority of the mass population of any given culture.

While both of these groups may well influence the majority view, the religious bigotry or the gay jackasses, as you put it, will only affect the climate of acceptance. Human perception of equality has advanced significantly over the last 40 years and there is no reason to believe equality cannot continue towards attaining universal acceptance. (There are many other forms of slavery that need addressing, the corporate attitude being just one.)

The real enemy is only the belief that equal rights cannot happen, that acceptance of the human right to love whomever we want, will never happen.

It already has happened in the hearts and minds of many people, straight, gay, religious and secular, across all cultures.

We are all best served to see that whatever we do, we do to enhance the spread of that acceptance.

All we are saying is give Love a chance.

[JamesSavik]

All we are saying is give Love a chance.

They shot the guy in the head who said give peace a chance. If I were you, I'd duck.

Lets face facts: naked force has determined every issue in human history. Unless we can exert enough force, we will get nowhere.

It's simply a matter of physics and we simply don't have enough force nor do we possess the will or the numbers to exert that force.

For those of you that think passive resistence is the answer, remember: they shot Ghandi in the head too.

[DesDownunder]

They shot the guy in the head who said give peace a chance. If I were you, I'd duck.

Lets face facts: naked force has determined every issue in human history. Unless we can exert enough force, we will get nowhere.

It's simply a matter of physics and we simply don't have enough force nor do we possess the will or the numbers to exert that force.

For those of you that think passive resistence is the answer, remember: they shot Ghandi in the head too.

I disagree that naked force is the only determinate throughout history.

John Lennon was not shot because he proclaimed peace and love, but because his deranged killer was seeking notoriety.

I refuse to cower in fear of my own assassination, just to continue living in what would soon become a rather pointless existence without the chance for peace and love.

Therefore if proclaiming, that Love is the only sane reason for existence and that compassion is the humane condition for peace, gets me shot, I'll take the risk and shout it to whomever will listen, because ultimately it is not about being safe, but about living in the face of adversity for the sake of the chance to realise a better world.

The more people who adopt peace as a credo, the more they give peace a chance to become reality.

[Cole Parker]

For those of you that think passive resistence is the answer, remember: they shot Ghandi in the head too.

Well yes, they did shoot Gandhi. However, before that, his nonviolent resistence resulted in the independence of India. He is called the father of his country. Martin Luther King was also shot, buthe was instrumental in civil rights being extended to blacks in this country.

Wackos will always be with us, but the causes that are worth fighting for remain, and in this country, we have a history of moving slowly towards the moral goodness we stand for. The list of these advances is long, and the changes have been permanent. In the last century we saw vast improvements in the rights afforeded to children, women, blacks and native Americans. The social and legal climate for gays improved markedly in the last few decades of that century.

I say, let's push for more progress with optimism and courage, applauding gains already made and expecting more to come.

Negativism only holds us back.

B

[JamesSavik]

I say, let's push for more progress with optimism and courage, applauding gains already made and expecting more to come.

Negativism only holds us back.

That is not what I see.

What I see is progress in the big gay meccas and those of us who do not live there are written off.

[Trab]

What I see is progress in the big gay meccas and those of us who do not live there are written off.

I'm going to reference something most of us can related to, cutting of the lawn. What we do is start in one area, then slowly move further afield until the grass is greener everywhere (er, cut nicely, I mean). One area seems to get all the benefit, but that area expands steadily. Nobody, but nobody works to achieve a nicely trimmed lawn by mowing a little bit off the top of the whole lawn, then lowering the mower a bit, and doing it again, and again.

What on earth makes you think we can achieve gains universally at the same time, and not in a spotty way? As long as there is a state structure in the USA, it will always be different from one to the next. I have very serious doubts that the gay rights in 'fringe areas' are being written off by those in 'meccas'.

[Richard Norway]

I'm going to reference something most of us can related to, cutting of the lawn. What we do is start in one area, then slowly move further afield until the grass is greener everywhere (er, cut nicely, I mean). One area seems to get all the benefit, but that area expands steadily. Nobody, but nobody works to achieve a nicely trimmed lawn by mowing a little bit off the top of the whole lawn, then lowering the mower a bit, and doing it again, and again.

What on earth makes you think we can achieve gains universally at the same time, and not in a spotty way? As long as there is a state structure in the USA, it will always be different from one to the next. I have very serious doubts that the gay rights in 'fringe areas' are being written off by those in 'meccas'.

So life isn't fair. Who ever said it was was or is going to be? Trab's right. Who ever said or even thought that it's a black and white world that we won't be put on sometimes, is just plain not realistic. Of course there will be disparages in equal treatment. But that's not the point...at least for me. What's important is that we don't become lethargic or even cynical and stop trying. Things happen. BIG things happen. Great elections are won. How do they? They happen by doing small things...constantly. I'm creating the first LGBTQ centers organization in New Mexico. Is it going to change the world? Of course not. Is it going to change the level of homophobia in New Mexico? Probably not. But it might change ONE persons mind. That's enough for me, because that one person's mind, coupled with all the other people's minds that have been changed by the countless other people that are trying, WILL eventually make a difference.

Maybe I'm Pollyanna incarnate, but I can't give up hope. Because...and this is the biggest reason ever....if I don't believe in a better life, than I have no hope to keep living.

I'm sorry James, but I can't embrace your cynicism. You may think I'm not being realistic. Maybe I'm not, but it's the way I get through my day and be happy to fall asleep at the end of it.

[JamesSavik]

I'm sorry James, but I can't embrace your cynicism.

Wait. See how you feel after decades of no progress, no hope for it and no realistic path to change in sight.

Watch your politicians promise you the moon and sell you down the river- over and over.

Watch your friends die off one by one while the goverenment sits on its collective ass and does nothing because the epidemic seems to have something to do with homosexuals.

Then you too will understand that "the people" and their gov't of mob rule is ignorant, evil and corrupt beyond any hope of change or redemption. It might not even take decades to learn this lesson: one of those "people" might decide to murder you in the street simply because they don't like your looks. Why not? They'll get off with a slap on the wrist.

Screw "the people" and screw the goverenment. If you are to succeed and prosper it is because of your own efforts and despite theirs.

Do for youself, have faith in yourself- don't look to others for what you want or need.

[Trab]

"Hope springs eternal" comes to mind over this, and other human controversy. What one needs to recognize is that the people involved in each aspect of any 'dispute' all have hope of it 'going their way'.

Sadly, the religious right, who seem to be so strongly against gay rights, are probably very much in fear that we are the Devil's spawn, and they are very much sincere in their efforts to rid humanity of the scourge that they see us to be. We know that's wrong, that their whole concept is wrong, but if we resort to violence to prove they are wrong, we will not only betray our own loving natures and values, but also our fellow homosexual brothers and sisters, since the scourge will then be a proven, even to those who don't have those religious misconceptions.

Even logically, it should be obvious that "Might" will never resolve this situation. As abhorrent as the thought is, if one were to try to kill all the religious right, all those who profess to hate gays, the rest of the world would unite against us. If they tried to do the same thing, the rest of the world would also arise. Furthermore, with an estimate of 10% of kids being born gay, the problem will simply never go away.

The ONLY way to change this near stalemate is to change the direction of the "hope". The religious right need to become convinced that we are not evil Devil's spawn, but just people, people who are loving, hard working, productive, and fair. We need to become convinced that they in turn are not Devils with hate in their hearts, but just misguided with distorted information. With those as the hopes, we may get to a meeting of the minds, and finally, hopefully, to a peaceful resolution; an amicable coexistence.

HOWEVER, I think sometimes we get too involved, too deep, and too committed into a situation, or into our personal angst and frustration, to be able to see that there is another way, and that the other way may actually be happening. When our personal situation becomes too much to bear, and we lash out at all around us as threats and enemies, it is well past time to vacate. Pull back, pull out, leave, depart, vamoose. Do whatever it takes to "get the hell away" and start the road to personal recovery. When in your own darkest depths, you cannot ever, in any way, cause someone else to be uplifted, inspired, or loving, as you have nothing to give, not even hope, as it has forsaken you. The best gift you can give is to take the remnants of what is left in you, go elsewhere, and start to love yourself again. As that grows, so will your love for others, and theirs for you.

If you visit the SPCA and see some of the abused dogs, or cats, or other animals, you will see that continual abuse can cause reactions in two varying ways: total aggression towards any approaching being; total collapse in fear, with cowering in a corner. Either way is completely counter-productive to being loved and adopted by someone who cares. It is the happy loving puppy that is taken home, not the cringing one, and even less likely, the snarling teeth baring one. Once their over-reactions tone down, things improve dramatically for them. Don't kid yourself, it is the same with people. Over-reaction, lashing out or cringing in fear, gets us nowhere.