Cup Bearer

[Cole Parker]

I've just read the first two chapters of a Nifty story titled Cup Bearer.

Actually that brings me to the end of Chapter 1, because the first chapter is numbered 0.

The writing is excellent and the plot promises complexity in both characters and storyline.

Anyone interested can find it here: http://www.nifty.org/nifty/gay/adult-youth/cup-bearer/

C

[The Pecman]

Same here. I'd love to read it -- was it yanked off Nifty?

[colinian]

I found this on Alt.Sex.Stories Text Repository (http://www.asstr.org/search.php).

"The Cup Bearer, chapter thirty"

/Collections/nifty/bisexual/adult-youth/cup-bearer/cup-bearer-30

Author: D JONES <djedoric1958@btinternet.com>

Keywords: bi, ped

[159K, en] (2001-04-29)

... gmt from jones djedoric1958 btinternet djedoric1958@btinternet.com subject the cup bearer chapter thirty the cup bearer by dj chapter thirty when it was time for the ban...

I checked the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org), but there's nothing listed there.

If someone is interested they can try to reach the author, D Jones, at the email address above.

Colin

[DesDownunder]

A real mystery.

Further to Colin's investigation, I couldn't even find it on the link he provides.

In addition the story does not list in either the Removed, Rejected or Missing lists at Nifty.

Neither does a general web search reveal any reference.

Whoever removed it, did a damn fine job.

Maybe the author was made an offer for print publication and the publishers chased down and removed all links.

Other reasons for removal might include:

Copyright infringement

The author's father found the story on his son's computer.

The author died and the family/trustees of the estate removed it.

The author was saved by one of those gay correction centres and he is now repenting for writing his "evil" story.

The author was fixed by Amazon.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[blue]

I haven't read any of Bullsinger's stories, but she is now being hosted at The Story Lover's site. I know TSL's stories are fine in content, so I have no reason to think Bullsinger's would not also be fine.

Comments at another board say Bullsinger's stories drew complaints and were pulled from Nifty because (a) she's a woman writer; and (b) her stories were not "gay enough." Both reasons are ludicrous, of course. I would hope Nifty didn't really pull the stories for either of those reasons.

Tim at CW and I have asked our editors to read her stories, in case they might be suitable for Codey's World to recommend them to our readers.

If they'd be suitable for AwesomeDude's readers, that's wonderful.

Neither AwesomeDude.com nor Codey's World would ever drop a writer or story for the gender or sexual orientation of the author, or for "not being gay enough."

Codey's World accepts authors regardless of gender or sexual orientation, and stories and poems we host are accepted regardless of whether they have gay themes or gay characters. All that matters is if they meet our submission guidelines. See: http://www.codeysworld.com/submissions.html

If Bullsinger's stories meet AD's or CW's guidelines, then great. CW would be happy to link to her stories, if they meet CW's criteria.

I'm sure Dude would welcome input by people who've read Bullsinger's stories.

Support of good writers and good writing is vital at both AD and CW.

[blue]

Help! That post came across as sounding like an ad for CW or for AD, and it wasn't intended that way. I've been around advertising, marketing, and P.R. too much.

Um, What I intended was something supportive and friendly, with a little bit of "what on earth?" and "hell, yeah!" thrown in for good measure.

Of course, I don't mind cheering for AD and CW, either. Or any other friendly story site.

[The Pecman]

I've seen mysteries like this before and have no answer for them. I checked Colinian's URL that he offered, but only got this:

Sorry, there is no page at ASSTR matching your request.

A haiku while you contemplate where to go now:

The Web site you seek

cannot be located

but endless more exist

-- Joy Rothke

That doesn't look too promising. A google search for the author (djedoric1958@btinternet.com) doesn't reveal anything, either.

I'll send an email and see what happens.

[Cole Parker]

You guys are going way too fast for me. I see three names above: Bullsinger, D Jones and djedoric. Am I to assume these are all the same person? Does someone know this as a fact? How do they know this?

Hey, someone should be able to track this person down. How common a name is D. Jones, anyway?

C

[The Pecman]

Hey, Cole, you're the one who started this thread. Any chance this page still lives in your web browser history? You've got my interest perked up.

I see nothing on the Story Lover website, assuming it's supposed to be at this link:

http://storylover.us/Main_Site.htm

[DesDownunder]

Help! That post came across as sounding like an ad for CW or for AD, and it wasn't intended that way. I've been around advertising, marketing, and P.R. too much.

Um, What I intended was something supportive and friendly, with a little bit of "what on earth?" and "hell, yeah!" thrown in for good measure.

Of course, I don't mind cheering for AD and CW, either. Or any other friendly story site.

I think your intent is quite clear Blue.

The idea that a story is 'not gay enough' has me shaking my head in disbelief.

What's next? A story isn't political activist enough? Religious enough?

Oh well, at least they don't worry about spelling and punctuation.

Both AD and CW are very much more interested in quality of writing and the discussions in our Forums reflect that.

Submission guidelines clearly show the diversity of our literary interests when it comes to our supporting authors and readers, with an emphasis on not restricting an author's creativity whilst still maintaining respect for human dignity. See the submission guidelines.

It might also help if we realise that it is next to impossible to police the gender or orientation of our membership or guests. The Net is gender anonymous, so pragmatically, we don't even bother trying. Member profiles have a gender check box for you to tell us, if you so desire, what you feel is your best guess.

I certainly don't want to have try asking any of our assorted wildlife to verify their gender. (I'm not that nuts.)

[Cole Parker]

Hey, Cole, you're the one who started this thread. Any chance this page still lives in your web browser history? You've got my interest perked up.

I see nothing on the Story Lover website, assuming it's supposed to be at this link:

http://storylover.us/Main_Site.htm

You have no idea at all whom you are talking to! I'm lucky that I can turn the thing on in the morning, and sometimes screw that up!

You and Blue and Colin all understand this crap. If you can't do it, there's no chance at all I could be of help!

C

[Graeme]

Hey, Cole, you're the one who started this thread. Any chance this page still lives in your web browser history? You've got my interest perked up.

I see nothing on the Story Lover website, assuming it's supposed to be at this link:

http://storylover.us/Main_Site.htm

Use that link, click on "Hosted Authors" on the left hand menu, and then scroll down to find "The Bull Singer" and click on the name.

Or, just use the direct link, bypassing the menu

[The Pecman]

Ah, found it. Unfortunately, unless I'm very confused, only the Prologue is on the website; there are no chapters per se. Are those posted somewhere else, or is this a browser issue?

[DesDownunder]

Ah, found it. Unfortunately, unless I'm very confused, only the Prologue is on the webiste; there are no chapters per se. Are those posted somewhere else, or is this a browser issue?

As far as I can make out Pec, chapters will be posted over a period of time.

[The Pecman]

I did just get an email from the author, who confirms that the stories were removed from Nifty because of her gender. Unbelievable. As I told her, "Tom Harris didn't have to become a serial killer in order to write the Hannibal Lector novels!" For that matter, I think there isn't a single famous science-fiction author who's actually been in outer space.

By this reasoning, that would also mean a gay man shouldn't be allowed to write a story about a straight relationship, or vice versa. What does that have anything to do with it? Is Nifty saying a writer can't imagine what it's like to be a character completely different from their own life? That's just plain loony.

I'm definitely going to send a letter of complaint to David at Nifty. This is really outrageous behavior, especially if the story content meets the websites guidelines. Who or what the writer is should have nothing to do with it.

[DesDownunder]

A t last we agree 100% Pecman.

[Bruin Fisher]

I agree 110%.

[Richard Norway]

What? Did I just read that Des agreed with Pecman? Oh God, I feel the big one coming on!

[Cole Parker]

David's ruling also dismisses the several wonderful females writing and posting in this genre.

He's being ridiculous. It's the story that counts, not the gender of the author!

C

[Altimexis]

This whole thing about the gender of the author doesn't ring true. Are you sure you've got the full story? I mean, From Behind Those Eyes by Viv was first posted on Nifty before she was hosted at Gay Authors. There are many excellent female net authors who write about male gay characters. I can't believe Nifty would openly censor them. It makes no sense. They certainly didn't hesitate to post a story of mine, So Close, and Yet So Far, that deals with a lesbian couple. I hate to be skeptical, but I strongly suspect that someone is covering up the real reason behind pulling the story. I'm willing to bet it's something considerably more serious than the gender of the author.

Issues arise all the time. When Cole first started posting his very first story on this site, it just suddenly disappeared one day. I e-mailed him right away - he wasn't even aware that it had been pulled - and it turned out there was a silly misunderstanding that he cleared up with the Dude and all has been well ever since. It's amazing to think that one of our strongest authors could have hand his work pulled over a simple misunderstanding, but it happened, and it wasn't anyone's fault.

Something much more serious happened with Josh. It's not appropriate for me to discuss the issues, but suffice it to say he did something really stupid and inappropriate. Anyway, he wrote a really beautiful story, which can be found on Nifty, called Book Worms, which he has also submitted here and which I would love to see hosted here as well. It's certainly appropriate for AD, but of course it's the Dude's call and, given what Josh did, I can't blame him for taking his time and perhaps waiting for a more heartfelt apology.

Finally, I'm embarrassed to say there is my own situation at Codey's World. Now in my defense, you have to understand that I used to work with kids in the inner city of Detroit, where these kids got shot up with Uzis, the result of gang violence, and ended up in wheelchairs for the rest of their lives. A lot of these kids were already fathers and had absolutely no inhibitions whatsoever in talking about sex. When I added the line, "Now you know why they make flavored condoms," to my story Positive at AD in the context of a presentation that one of my characters, Kurt, was making to his school - this was something a 15-year-old would say. I added it to make the point that oral sex is not safer sex - something that is often lost in stories teens read on the net, and I did it in response to an e-mail received from one of my readers.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of suggesting to Colin that the same phrase or something similar be added to the version at CW. This wasn't my first offense. Sexual exploration often begins in middle school and although a 12-year-old boy may be capable of looking up information on safer sex on the net, IMO that doesn't mean they're going to do so before going down on their best friend after having read a story about it. Forgive me, but I'm naturally cynical. In any case, after contacting Colin, I was banned from making further submissions.

I really am terribly sorry about pushing the point, and have apologized several times to Ben and to Tim. CW is their site, not mine. We all miss Codey terribly, and admire the site he built so lovingly. I did not intent to offend anyone, and am terribly sorry for stepping on toes. This is a case study in how a difference in opinion can escalate in a very brief period of time to result in an otherwise good author being banned from a site or in being prevented from having their further work posted. Tim has since reversed the decision to ban my further postings, but I think there must be an e-mail block still in place, as I've made multiple attempts to submit the Naptown Tales that have absolutely no sexual content - these at least should have no controversy - and I've heard absolutely nothing in return. Ben, if you're reading this, at least give me the courtesy to tell me directly to get lost if that's how you feel, or really do give me the second chance that Tim offered, as I'm sincere about it when I say I'm sorry and will abide by your decisions and guidelines. Everyone deserves second chances. I'm even willing to re-edit my earlier stories to bring them into compliance with your current standards on sexual content. It's not about me or about my ego - it's about bringing the readers quality stories.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. The whole point of this post wasn't supposed to be about me - it's a case in point. I don't believe the story was pulled because of the author's gender, but the real reason must have been pretty horrendous to brazenly claim gender bias as the reason.

[Tanuki Racoon]

I agree 110%.

120%

[The Pecman]

his whole thing about the gender of the author doesn't ring true. Are you sure you've got the full story?

The author just registered on the forum today (6/7/09) as a member, so perhaps she'll want to join in the discussion. I won't reveal any details of her emails to me, except to say that she pretty much verified the story as recounted above.

[DesDownunder]

The author just registered on the forum today (6/7/09) as a member, so perhaps she'll want to join in the discussion. I won't reveal any details of her emails to me, except to say that she pretty much verified the story as recounted above.

In that case let's all give Dorothy a big WELCOME!

[Dorothy]

Hi everyone.

Allow me to introduce myself, I am Dorothy aka DJ aka The Bull Singer. I am so pleased to hear about all the support for me on this website so I think I had better explain things.

Not long ago someone complained to David that my story, The Cup Bearer, was not a gay story and shouldn't have been posted to gay male/adult youth. It was origianlly posted to bisexual/adult youth but i felt it needed a larger audience. David refused at first and I said I would withdraw my stories. He compromised and added it onto both lists. I was happy with that and had a lot more response from my readers. Then an old codger put his complaint in and forwarded a copy of his letter to me. I treated it as a joke at first, and posted his letter to a couple of the groups I subscribed to. A lot of readers wrote to David in support of me, and I in the meantime received not so nice emails from the complainent. AS a result of all this David sent a letter to the old codger saying I and my friends were whining and removed my stories.

So there you have it.

I wonder if the owqner of awesomedude would agree to my posting my stories here?

Dorothy

[Graeme]

I wonder if the owqner of awesomedude would agree to my posting my stories here?

I can't speak for Dude, but I'm sure I've got some blackmail-worthy photos somewhere that I'm happy to use in a good cause

Welcome, Dorothy, and I'll keep my fingers crossed that your stories appear here at AD in the near future.