Dermot

[vwl]

Just an alert that Dermot in the high-school section of Nifty looks promising. Six chapters have been completed.

[The Pecman]

I dunno. I got to chapter 3 and to me it was cliche city.

So far, it's just gone in the expected directions to me. Just once, I'd like to be surprised by a story like this. The "hustler in a hospital" bit has been done quite a few times before.

Also, five chapters in a hospital isn't exactly moving the story along. I think they could've cut to the chase a little faster.

[DesDownunder]

I find for the story.

My judgement is not based on whether there are cliches or not, but that they are appropriate and relevant to the entertainment value of the story. As for the time taken up in the hospital, I find the physical condition of young Dermot would indeed require a reasonably lengthy stay in hospital, and that far from being boring, I am fascinated to read of his daily struggles with the doctor, nurses, social services and the policeman. At each encounter with these characters the plot is moved along by further revelations of Dermot's beating and his life. That his only escape from hospital reality is reading books is also a nice touch as it parallels that our escape is in reading the story about Dermot.

I'll be interested to see where the story goes and will reserve full judgement until we have all the evidence of the completed work.

In the meantime the author is released on his own recognizance without bond, to return home to finish writing Dermot's story.

Judgement adjourned!

[colinian]

I agree with Des. I'm enjoying this story. I like Dermot and Lando and I can actually picture them in my mind. The background characters are well developed. I like the banter between Dermot and Lando, and between Dermot and Maria. The Catholic subtopic is interesting because I'm a lapsed Catholic. My family is Irish on both sides, and I went to Catholic school through the fifth grade, so I know something about that background. I'm looking forward to the future chapters.

Colin

[The Pecman]

I dunno. Six chapters in one hospital room, without a change of location... The cliched concerned rich lawyer with a son who happens to be the same age and gay. I always bristle when there's this many coincidences. You just know the lawyer will adopt the kid and it'll go the usual route.

Granted, there are good things in the story, and my old pal Keith Morissette would like the "cynical, angry teenage hustler with the heart of gold" character, which he used a couple of times in his stories. I think the author's intentions are good, and I'm just disappointed with the above issues, because I think they could've been avoided.

[colinian]

The chapters are relatively short. Put together as a novel the hospital scenes work for me. Dermot is supposed to be in the hospital for an extended period because of his punctured lung, damaged eye socket, and damage to the side of his skull. During this time the author is introducing characters who might be important in the story and expanding what we know about Dermot and others, especially Lando. It's working for me, and I'm enjoying the story.

Colin

[Richard Norway]

I too am enjoying this story, and the six chapters in the hospital are not an issue. Characters have been introduced, anticipation of the future of these characters is building and the story is moving forward. The staccato of some of the text may not be the Queens English, but it heightens the scene being presented. It works. Thank goodness the author is posting chapters quickly.

[colinian]

I've read whats available so far and think this is really rather good. I know its all been done before but we're dealing with escapism here with the possibility of a feel-good factor at the end. Keep on churning it out I say.

I read somewhere that everything has been done before. I also like this story.

Colin

[DesDownunder]

I read somewhere that everything has been done before. I also like this story.

Colin

I tried to do everything...Oh wait a minute, that was everyman.

[DesDownunder]

Dermot is now completed. twelve chapters in all.

I am interested to hear opinions on this story.

I won't say anymore at present until others have commented.

[vwl]

The story started well, but didn't maintain its quality, in my view. Pecman was prescient about the outcome, and I agreed with his observations at the time.

This doesn't mean that a story will be bad, but if the outcome is predictable, something else has to rise to produce the quality of the story -- dialogue, sense of time and place -- and I'm afraid that the opposite happened. The story became predictable, then a bit preachy, and finally I was no longer able to suspend disbelief in Dermot's wrestling with the Catholicism issue and why he appealed to the other members of Lando's family.

In short, Dermot started out well but didn't hold up.

[The Pecman]

I agree with VWL to a point. I just finished reading all the new chapters, and the story stayed inside the same hospital room for 100% of the story. The kid ended up with the family, exactly as I expected, and the plot got very heavy with pro-Catholic leanings.

My biggest problem, though, was that the title character was supposed to be a street kid from a low-income family, but he was using a lot of $3 words all over the place in the final chapter. To me, he almost sounds like an intellectual guy in his early 20s -- not a homeless teenager of 15.

That having been said: in the context of whether it's better than most of what I've read on Nifty in the last six months, I have to admit, it's not terrible. If there was a scale of 1-10, I'd give it a 5.5. I don't know if that puts it on the level of B.O.N., but it's certainly better than a ton of dreck out there.

But the heavy Catholic thing at the end does kind of lead me cold. I think it seems shoehorned into the rest of the story, as if the author had an agenda where he wanted to justify gay lifestyles with this religion. That struck me as very odd, and it really sticks out.

I think if the dialog were cleaned up and made more realistic, and if they got the kid out of the hospital halfway through the story and at the lawyer's house on a temporary basis, the story could work to a point. In the real world, though, there are some major issues the story avoids. For example: teenagers being young and immature, the two boys could break up, which could create huge problems if they're living under the same roof. Do you throw the kid out because he's no longer in a relationship with the other boy? Also: what about the trials of the rapist(s), the abusive Uncle, and so on? (I also noted that the lead character said earlier he was a virgin; later he admits to being raped twice, which kind of voids the virgin thing.) So the author is guilty of over-simplifying a lot of difficult, complicated problems, while loading up on a lot of religious issues.

But there are positive aspects of the story, so I'm a little torn on the issue. It definitely needs a lot of work, though.

[Cole Parker]

I only began reading this today, after Des' message told me it was finished.

This is the second story I've read recently that had a religious message that was hidden until we were well involved with the characters. The other one, surprisingly, was at AD! This one wasn't as offensive to me as that other story, but my feeling is, if that message is going to be integral to the story, I'd like to know that much earlier. Some things, like religion and politics and rock music, generate strong feelings in readers, and forewarning would be polite.

OK, the rock music was a joke. But still....

I really liked the beginning of the story. The writer is good at his craft and obviously very intelligent, well-read and educated. But because of that, I felt a little used when the story turned out to be a vehicle to sell his religious point of view. He did it in as inoffensive manner as I could imagine, but still, he took the story away from the plight of the boy and made it salesmanship. The boy's tale, which I liked, got more or less abandoned, becoming secondary to the religious aspect.

Because of that, I wouldn't even give it a 5.5. Feeling tricked, I'd probably make it a 4. Which is too bad, because I really like it, up to about chapter 8 or 9.

C

[DesDownunder]

I only began reading this today, after Des' message told me it was finished.

This is the second story I've read recently that had a religious message that was hidden until we were well involved with the characters. The other one, surprisingly, was at AD! This one wasn't as offensive to me as that other story, but my feeling is, if that message is going to be integral to the story, I'd like to know that much earlier. Some things, like religion and politics and rock music, generate strong feelings in readers, and forewarning would be polite.

OK, the rock music was a joke. But still....

I really liked the beginning of the story. The writer is good at his craft and obviously very intelligent, well-read and educated. But because of that, I felt a little used when the story turned out to be a vehicle to sell his religious point of view. He did it in as inoffensive manner as I could imagine, but still, he took the story away from the plight of the boy and made it salesmanship. The boy's tale, which I liked, got more or less abandoned, becoming secondary to the religious aspect.

Because of that, I wouldn't even give it a 5.5. Feeling tricked, I'd probably make it a 4. Which is too bad, because I really like it, up to about chapter 8 or 9.

C

Rock music? I thought we had to send up warning flares if we discussed classical music.

As for Dermot, You might like to skip my opinion if you find criticism of religion will be an affront to your sensitivities.

I agree that Pecman was prescient about the outcome, but I was enjoying the writing and the story until the defence for religious beliefs displaced rational progression of the plot.

I must of course reveal my own secularist/agnostic bias. I also would make it clear that I love stories that deal with biblical or ancient mythologies, whether they are from the Middle East, the far East, or from West Hollywood. I don't need to be of a particular religion to enjoy looking at ancient male characters running around in loin clothes in search of a meaning for life. Quite often I have given due consideration to the idea that at least one meaning is covered by said loin cloth.

Also, I am fascinated by philosophical discussions as well as metaphysics, enlightenment and other rational approaches to realising something of the spirit of wonder that is our sentience.

I'll watch a documentary about Capitalism or Socialism or even the horrors of inhuman regimes. If I feel like it I will watch a lecture or read a book on religious or political views. Comparative religion is an illuminating subject in itself. I have nothing against religious figures influencing the characters or plot of a story, such as happens in Ben-Hur, or the silly satanic rituals in horror movies.

I am not however interested in movies that have obvious product placement and I don't watch TV because I don't like stories being interrupted by advertisements.

When a story degenerates into discussing church policy statements or arguments, I find myself similarly and severely, turned off.

When a story devotes a whole chapter to contentious views of a priest trying to defensively be apologetic for Church law, I am beginning to suspect that someone in the Church is writing gay stories in an attempt to increase the congregation.

What's next? The Fred Phelps group writing a story that encourages gays to picket there own houses?

Please understand that I do not oppose philosophical writing, written with intellectual honesty or with a view to making a statement.

Great novels rarely get written without some moral or ethical revelation hidden in their text; but it is part of the plot, the sub-plot, or in the overall context inherent in the rhyme and reason for the work's existence. But the author is careful to present his argument in a way that makes you consider its truth. That is the intellectual honesty bit.

Hanging your protagonist out to dry for a happy ending, if he accepts what has been in the story, patently unacceptable to him is nothing short of manipulation, bordering on propaganda.

All I can say in defense of this story is that perhaps the author did not do any of this intentionally and I'm over-reacting, because I have seen more than one case of this kind of infiltration of religious belief utilising gay fiction as its vehicle recently.

If Dermot is listed under religious stories, I'd give it a 3 out of 10, otherwise, I pass.

[Bruin Fisher]

Hi, Jack!

Similarly, the Narnia stories by C.S.Lewis were my favourite books when I was very young, they were the first proper books the little bookworm that was me read. Much later, when I realised that they were insidious Christian allegory, I felt cheated and betrayed.

Maybe Lewis thought that if children got used to the romanticised concept of the heroic superhuman lion dying and thereby restoring the universe, they would find it easier to accept the same concept taught from a pulpit but that's what we call grooming and it's unhealthy.

It's despicable, in my view.

[The Pecman]

At least we're agreed that the weird religious agenda is kind of a bizarre, tacked-on element of the story. For the record, I don't mind the Narnia stories (at least judging by the first film, since I haven't read the books), and to me, they work fine if you leave the allegory out of it. In fact, C.S. Lewis himself often denied the allegories (as shown at this link), and says it was unintentional.

But Dermot is no allegory. It's got a lot of vague excuses for how homosexuality is viewed in the Catholic church, and only in a (presumably) very reformed church at that. I'm not sure why the religious element had to be brought into the story, except as an artificial source of conflict between the two boys. To me, this feels like a contrivance, plus I feel like the religious argument gets prolonged too long and could've been greatly simplified. I'm more concerned about the unanswered questions, the inconsistent dialog of the lead character, the static location, and the overall predictability.

BTW, I didn't see the link for the story above, so those who want to check it out can go here:

http://library.gaycafe.com/nifty/gay/highschool/dermot/

[dude]

I don't know.... The story was completed on Tuesday and I read it at one sitting, based on VWL's recommendation. It is complete at twelve chapters with the entire story taking place in a hospital room but I found the story entertaining... romantic and enlightening... especially Chapter Eleven.

Our religious faith is something we can choose or change or ignore. Sexual orientation is not. But I found the dialogue between the priest and Dermot quite interesting and informative. Of course, it is obvious the author -and by transference, the protagonist Dermot- to be well read and possessing intellectual curiousity. As the story explains, the kid was not a low class street urchin but a good student who fell upon bad luck.

Let's face it, approximately one in ten Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Jews & Muslims are are gay. And the number among Catholic priests is possibly even higher. To deny that there are people who are both religious and gay would be a mistake. I think that the author making a case for reconciling Catholicism and homosexuality here is fine and can't find anything wrong with that.

I liked the story so much, in fact, that it will be coming to the pages of AwesomeDude as a complete novel in 12 chapters in the near future. AwesomeDude tries to be a diverse site and I think the story was written well and would fit in nicely.

Along these same lines, I'm looking at a novel set in Egypt about a young gay couple which also carries a Muslim religious theme.

Come on, let's lighten up and be more diverse!

[DesDownunder]

I don't know.... The story was completed on Tuesday and I read it at one sitting, based on VWL's recommendation. It is complete at twelve chapters with the entire story taking place in a hospital room but I found the story entertaining... romantic and enlightening... especially Chapter Eleven.

Our religious faith is something we can choose or change or ignore. Sexual orientation is not. But I found the dialogue between the priest and Dermot quite interesting and informative. Of course, it is obvious the author -and by transference, the protagonist Dermot- to be well read and possessing intellectual curiousity. As the story explains, the kid was not a low class street urchin but a good student who fell upon bad luck.

Let's face it, approximately one in ten Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Jews & Muslims are are gay. And the number among Catholic priests is possibly even higher. To deny that there are people who are both religious and gay would be a mistake. I think that the author making a case for reconciling Catholicism and homosexuality here is fine and can't find anything wrong with that.

I liked the story so much, in fact, that it will be coming to the pages of AwesomeDude as a complete novel in 12 chapters in the near future. AwesomeDude tries to be a diverse site and I think the story was written well and would fit in nicely.

Along these same lines, I'm looking at a novel set in Egypt about a young gay couple which also carries a Muslim religious theme.

Come on, let's lighten up and be more diverse!

My missive on Dermot was my personal reaction to the story, but in no way did I intend it to be a case for censorship, or seek to have the story banished. On the other hand I do think there is a case for classification and Dermot would in my opinion fall in the category:

Stories with a Religious Theme.

I am more than happy for Dermot to be accommodated on the site, or other stories with a religious element, provided the diversity is extended to stories presenting a difference of opinion with religious doctrine. Of course I do not mean that as an invitation to disrespect the beliefs of other people.

Admittedly, there is a division between those who believe in a religion and those who do not. There are many issues involving the differing views of these two groups which would make for a strong plot. A romance between two guys from such opposing viewpoints could be very interesting, if not challenging to write and read. Certainly, there is a considerably large number of variations to such a theme and if we throw in a political reference or two, we might well find it becomes very diverse. Many of the great straight romantic novels have both politics and religion in their stories, and I don't see why gay stories can't explore them as well.

Somewhere, someone might just be writing a huge novel along such lines called,

Gay With The Wind.

On revisiting my reaction to Dermot, I contend that the story has certain attributes, I would like to see explored in a less manipulative manner.

[vwl]

De gustubus non disputandem etc.

But. I would have had Dermot go to the Lando household before the Catholicism issue was raised and face all the conflicts in real time, rather than afar from the hospital bed. I never did believe that acceptance of Catholicism was a necessary condition for fostering, so it could have emerged at a later time in the story. And, I think it could have been done without the preaching.

My style, however, differs from Dermot's author, so I'm not contending that mine is better -- just that I would have done it differently if confronted with the same story constraints

[Cole Parker]

A romance between two guys from such opposing viewpoints could be very interesting, if not challenging to write and read.

We already enjoy such a story at AD. Altimexis, in his continuing series about gay teens in the Midwest of this country, has one episode where two boys, one Islamic, one Jewish, fall in love and work out their differences.

What I found different about his story from this one was he didn't seem to be trying to sell either religion to us, and we knew from the get-go that the story was going to be about resolving religious differences. And that, to me, made the story a lot more palatable.

As I said before, I thought the writing in Dermot to be very fine indeed. I was, and am, upset that the religious theme seemed to thrown in sneakily after we were already interested in the characters. That seemed, and seems, underhanded and devious to me.

I will admit to strong negative feelings toward organized religion. I try to be open-minded about most things, but personal experiences with proselytizing fanatics and bad childhood memories make that very difficult with this subject. Thus, when religion is introduced into a story where I'm not expecting it and have no reason to expect it, it bothers me. I would have liked to know in advance religion was going to be a linchpin which would be fundamental to the story's denouement.

But given that gripe, I will again say the religion in this story was introduced and developed about as inoffensively as could be done. I happen to be overly sensitive to religion, and will admit to it. What I found as offensive as the religion is it seemed to become the story, instead of the boy being the story. That was extremely disappointing.

I certainly have no objection, however, to the story running here. I'm all for diversity.

C

[colinian]

WARNING! Egregious Spoilers Below! Beware if you haven't read Dermot through chapter 12 (the end of the story).

Actually, Dermot is very anti-Catholic. Father Schiller spends chapter 11 trying to convince Dermot that the Church is changing, but Dermot is not convinced. Even when he finally agrees with Dr. Lanier that none of the Lyle family is trying to make him turn Catholic and his objections to the Catholic Church are based on his father's railing at God when Dermot's mother died, he still has reservations about his relationship with Lando that are based on the Lyle family's profound Catholic faith.

The problem for for the author is that he wrote a resolution to the story that has Dermot's attackers being arrested, Dermot moving to the Lyle's, and Dermot and Lando agreeing to be boyfriends. Where would this story go? I think it's a completed novella, setting the stage (I hope) for a sequel or another story with these same characters.

Colin

Edited Nov. 9, 2009 to add spoiler notice and to hide spoilers. (Sorry, Tracy.)

[TracyMN]

I'm still reading this story, but remembered there was a thread, which i'll read when it can't spoil anything-

just wanted to say I like it!

Tracy

[Pertinax]

Sorry that some of you didn't like the religious element in Dermot. I did not think I snuck it in, but then I was planning on this element from the beginning. Seemed to me a natural development.

From all I've read, a majority of people, including a majority of gay people, want some spirituality in their lives. I think it is unrealistic to ignore that. And I think it is healthier, spiritually speaking, to find that satisfaction in a context which is also open to reasonable discourse, not just an emotional experience or an abandonment of reason.

But I do not think I was merely engaging in salesmanship. I got a lot of responses to the first 12 chapters, the greater part of which were positive, and some specifically lauding the religious element. That's why I decided to begin a Part II. I had intended to stop with Chapter 12.

I guess, as long as most responses are positive, I will continue to struggle with Dermot's struggles.

Thanks to those who had positive comments. Including the positive comments about my writing even when the author did not like my content. I did not expect to please everyone.

P.S. I do not understand Colin's post of 6 November.

[dude]

P.S. I do not understand Colin's post of 6 November.

Glad you said that, Pertinax! I haven't got a clue either.

[DesDownunder]

I expressed a concern about the religion in Dermot, in what I consider now to be strong terms that may have been somewhat severe.

I can now see a number of ways that this religious element can have a positive value for the story, but I am still at a loss to realize your intention for not only Dermot, but also for the reader. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

No, I am not going to ask you to elaborate on your intention as you have now begun part two of this story which, I do find well written and interesting. I am more than happy to read it and discover what you have in mind, should you choose to do so. I think that is the fairest way for us all.

I know I am a bit of an unusual agnostic, Pertinax, in that I agree with you, that people do want to find something which we might refer to as spirituality and I don't think anyone should be condemned for seeking it. What they come to believe and how they come to believe it, is what interests me. That's what will make the story involving for me, even if I am conflicted by the result.

I look forward to seeing where you take the reader with Dermot's "struggles," as you so interestingly call them.