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The Real Meaning of Ender according to Salon.


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I worked on a Mormon cartoon product a couple of years ago (don't ask), and I was stunned when I heard the whole story of Joseph Smith and the angel from god and the golden plates and the mysterious language that took him a decade to translate and on and on and on. It's the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard in my life. Scientology makes more sense, and that's really science fiction.

Gonna try to see Ender's Game tomorrow. Movie ain't doing too well, but the reviews have been OK (not stellar, but positive). A friend of mine reports the shower fight scene is intact in the book, but very G-rated.

I was born and raised Mormon, and yes it is a load of crap. I once served as a missionary for the church, so if you ever have research questions pertaining to what they believe, I would be happy to answer questions honestly.

The shower scene is definitely missing points from the book, and is probably PG. Terrible movie by the way. I have never been more disappointed in a book to movie transition.

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It was my favorite novel growing up. I have to say it was my own expectations that probably led to my grand disappointment.

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In the book they were nude, and he killed his opponent. Interesting to see how they'll make that a G.

I just heard from a friend of mine that the scene in the film is briefer, we only get to see the boys from the waist up (no surprises there), and there's just one punch and the bully hits the floor and bashes his head in. So it's an abbreviated version of what happened in the book. My impression is in the book, [spoiler ALERT!] the authorities make sure Ender never finds out that he killed the opponent; he believes the kid was just critically injured and taken back to Earth for treatment. In the movie, he's smart enough to figure out the truth.

I was born and raised Mormon, and yes it is a load of crap. I once served as a missionary for the church, so if you ever have research questions pertaining to what they believe, I would be happy to answer questions honestly.

A close friend of mine was raised Mormon, and he's as hostile and negative about the Mormon faith as anybody I've ever met. These were 1980s cartoons made to indoctrinate young Mormon children into The Book of Mormon (the real books, not the Broadway show), and I was slack-jawed and in shock at a lot of what went on in the cartoons. What was hilarious is that whenever Joseph Smith would tell a fable to illustrate a point, the good guys were always blond, good-looking, with very white features; the bad guys always were darker-skinned and had hook-noses. You figure it out. :redface:

That is one goofy religion. I'm glad at least there's a movement afoot to push some of the Mormons into a "progressive" direction where they can reluctantly accept gay marriage to a point. I have no problem with them not allowing gay marriage in an actual Mormon temple -- to me, that's part of their own religious freedom. Forcing people's beliefs cuts both ways; I see no point to force somebody to accept me, but they do need to allow us to exist and live our own lives without hostility.

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That is one goofy religion. I'm glad at least there's a movement afoot to push some of the Mormons into a "progressive" direction where they can reluctantly accept gay marriage to a point. I have no problem with them not allowing gay marriage in an actual Mormon temple -- to me, that's part of their own religious freedom. Forcing people's beliefs cuts both ways; I see no point to force somebody to accept me, but they do need to allow us to exist and live our own lives without hostility.

Amen to that! This is an argument I still have with my Mormon family today. Some of them are accepting of gay people, but others not so much. I do try and explain to them that most of us wouldn't want to be married in a place that doesn't accept us anyway, but that doesn't mean they don't falsely believe that it's in our agenda.

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I will refrain from bashing Card or Mormonism.

I don't generally like to dive into of into topics that say this is the real meaning of thus-and-so.

In the final analysis, with any work of fiction, that question is best answered by the reader.

Unless the author was being deliberately obtuse, the meaning should be apparent- if there is meaning. There may be subtleties involved or layers that one might miss at first glance but in the final analysis the real meaning of any fiction is derived by individual reader and, may be quite different from reader to reader.

Ender's Game is just the sort of novel that causes this sort of discussion because there are subtleties involved and layers of meaning to consider.

_______________________________

FYI the movie: As movies go, it is exceptionally well done. Butterfield and Ford are outstanding. That being said, they left out way too much and changed many details. I hope at some point that it's made as a mini series format.

Watching the movie is like seeing a familiar face on a stranger. It looks right in some parts and lost in the others.

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FYI the movie: As movies go, it is exceptionally well done. Butterfield and Ford are outstanding. That being said, they left out way too much and changed many details. I hope at some point that it's made as a mini series format.

Watching the movie is like seeing a familiar face on a stranger. It looks right in some parts and lost in the others.

Agreed completely.

The audioplay was a very good adaptation - but it's also 8 hours long. Split that into a miniseries on HBO or AMC or the like, and it'd be awesome.

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The audioplay was a very good adaptation - but it's also 8 hours long. Split that into a miniseries on HBO or AMC or the like, and it'd be awesome.

But only if they spend a lotttttttta money on it. Spaceships, weightless battles, and futuristic sets do not come cheap.

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That's saying a lot. Most movies-from-books are disappointing. I've learned to expect that. I havn't decided if I'm going to this one or not, but I probably won't.

C

Basic general rule, the pictures are better in a book or radio play than TV or film because if the writing is any good at all, the reader's imagination trumps any visual effect possible.

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Ender's Game was showing at the local cinema down here on the south coast - though only one showing at 2:00pm on four days a week.

I was going to sneak off and see it tomorrow, but the film is no longer showing ... unless I want to go to London. :angry:

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Well, I saw the movie tonight. Not my choice, I actually voted for Captain Philips, but Ender's Game won the day.

It wasn't horrible.

It was fairly well done, good acting by Harrison Ford, decent by Asa Butterfield. Excellent special effects. Nothing even close to the book. Literally nine tenths of the book was left out. But, of course, I expected that. It's always the case with book to movie adaptions. It's just, well, it's already all been said in this thread and others.

I was a young teen when I read Ender's Game for the first time. It was one of those books..... One of those books....

One of those books that changes things. One of those books that shook fundamental things in my young teenage psyche of the time. I loved it. I really loved it. Then, much later, came some of his more recent books, and then all the news about the kind of person he seemed to be. Like the earlier linked article, it kind of rocked my world to think THAT man could write that particular book.

Anyway, it was a decent movie.

I won't see it again.

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Hello, Everyone.

I'm new here and had intended to simply look around and soak in the atmosphere of the forums for a while without making a pest of myself. But I found myself intrigued by all the psychoanalyzing of the Ender's Game book and movie. Why is it that people find it necessary to delve into the psychology of fictional characters in a fictional universe with fictional situations? Why can't a book be read and enjoyed simply because it's a good book?

Now mind you, I am not the least bit anamored of the author, as I am gay and his personal attitudes offend me. But I haven't seen any mention of gays and lesbians in any of his books that I've read. They have all been good reads and I've enjoyed the hours spent devouring them.

All this 'psychology' of Ender reminds me of an interview I saw once with Phil Collins when he was asked about the meaning behind the song, 'In The Air Tonight'. There have been, and probably still are, people that are convinced that he wrote a song about a real incident, even after he claimed that the song had no real meaning. It was just a fun song to write.

I question the reason for all the analysis of Ender and the story. Is it some need for people to demonstrate their superiority or their vast education? What is it about this story that requires us to dissect it down to the last page of every psychology text known to man? I submit a suggestion to all those analysts...get a life. Surely there are more important issues than analyzing the life and mind of a fictional characters against fictional aliens. If there needs to be an analysis, let's analyze how well or poorly the movie makers recreated the story on the big screen.

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I'm new here and had intended to simply look around and soak in the atmosphere of the forums for a while without making a pest of myself. But I found myself intrigued by all the psychoanalyzing of the Ender's Game book and movie. Why is it that people find it necessary to delve into the psychology of fictional characters in a fictional universe with fictional situations? Why can't a book be read and enjoyed simply because it's a good book?

It can be, but fans always tend to take things to an extreme, being fans. I like but did not love the book, and think it has good moments and is well-written. I don't see any deep psychological issues in the book at all -- it's just a story about a fairly militaristic society who trains children as soldiers from a very young age, and tells them only the bare minimum about their training.

Salon magazine had the initial statement, and if anything, we were just discussing that. Elsewhere, I posted the beginning of a long thread about gay protests against Orson Scott Card and the movie. In the end, the protests were unnecessary because the movie was poorly received and quickly bombed. I think it bombed because a mass market audience didn't want to see a large group of young teenagers fighting aliens in a simulated video game war. Previous movies with similar plots -- and I'd put Last Starfighter in that category -- also did poorly.

As far as the old "get a life" message goes, one wonders about the sense of negatively commenting in a thread rather than taking part in the discussion -- the true meaning of thread-crapping -- which is never a wise way to start off in a new discussion group on the web. Get to know us first before you come to the snap decision that we either don't know what we're talking about, or that your point of view is profoundly better than ours. It may just be we have a simple difference of opinion, neither side right or wrong.

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I think a lot of the discussion here was because many of us liked the book, found it really terrific, and then were trying to make sense of the man who wrote it and the book itself. There seemed to be a great disconnect between the two, and that's always good fodder for discussion.

The man's views of homosexuality don't just border of insanity. To me, they cross the line. Such intolerance and hatred from a man who claims to be a devout follower of a pseudo-Christian religion. Isn't that something worth discussing? Isn't trying to understand what's behind all that a worthwhile endeavor?

Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the psychobabble was about. If it offended you, you probably should have stopped reading it.

C

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When I was 12 years old (that was 12 years ago) I started to read Ender's Game and hated it. The idea of using little kids — throwing them away — to fight aliens was, and still is, repugnant to me. I'm probably in a minority, but hey — different strokes for different folks, right?

I think some of the discussion here was about the movie, and how the script was rewritten because of the impossibility (according to the producers) of casting kids who were at the ages written in the book. Orson Scott Card was involved in rewriting the script to recast the characters to be teenagers. That doesn't bother me because I still hate the book. I tried to read it recently and I found it just as repugnant as I did when I was 12. Because of that I probably wouldn't go see the movie.

There's a more important reason for why I will not go see the movie. I find Orson Scott Card and his hateful anti-gay rhetoric and rants totally repugnant. But hey — different strokes, right? My biggest problem with Card is that he doesn't believe in the concept of "different strokes." It's his way, period. So I also don't see a reason, as discussed here, with doing anything like buying his books or seeing his movie that would make him a few cents or a few dollars richer. Different strokes, right? I think that my decision is what's right — for me.

Colin :icon_geek:

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Hello, Everyone.

I'm new here and had intended to simply look around and soak in the atmosphere of the forums for a while without making a pest of myself. But I found myself intrigued by all the psychoanalyzing of the Ender's Game book and movie. Why is it that people find it necessary to delve into the psychology of fictional characters in a fictional universe with fictional situations? Why can't a book be read and enjoyed simply because it's a good book?

This is a forum on a website about reading and writing, full of readers and writers. Is it surprising that a lot of us like literary analysis?

Can't speak for anyone else, but when I read something that I love, or find an author whose work has an impact on me, I like to think about how that happened. How those characters - some of them limited to only a few pages of a novel - were able to feel so real. How that author took ink on a page and translated it to real emotion. And I enjoy reading the interpretations of other book nerds, because, hey, what do I know? Seeing another reader's interpretation of writing allows me to see it in a new light, as well. I don't see it as "necessary", but I see it as fun, and that's enough to justify spending ten minutes reading a forum thread.

As for "get a life" - that could be said about any hobby. Some people are into watching TV, or following sports teams, or studying music theory. I like reading and thinking about books, and I like discussing those books with other people to understand how those with other viewpoints may have reacted to it. I find that entertaining. If you don't, that's cool, too, but why come at us so aggressively for having different hobbies?

That said, welcome to the forum!

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As far as the old "get a life" message goes, one wonders about the sense of negatively commenting in a thread rather than taking part in the discussion -- the true meaning of thread-crapping -- which is never a wise way to start off in a new discussion group on the web. Get to know us first before you come to the snap decision that we either don't know what we're talking about, or that your point of view is profoundly better than ours. It may just be we have a simple difference of opinion, neither side right or wrong.

I see. I had not realized that the authors here were so thin skinned. Because I assure you I was not referring to anyone on this forum. I enjoyed the discussion here. I WAS referring to those individuals that make a living from over analyzing literary works. Please note the phrase 'over analyzing'. I too enjoy hearing the thoughts of other readers. Readers usually state their opinion, but refrain from pulling out their Psychiatry 101 text books from college. What I do not appreciate is a pages-long disertation that makes me feel like the poor characters have spent the last several months on some psychiatrist's couch talking about their mother complexes or some such. If you are one of those that enjoys that sort of thing, then more power to you. I'm happy for you. But please don't CRAP on my opinion simply because I don't enjoy reading some college thesis, and am willing to state that fact.

I'll make a point of going back and reviewing the 'thread-crapping' guidelines. Rest assured that if I ever feel the need to CRAP on anyone here, I'll keep my mouth shut. It would have been nice if someone has actually asked me to clarify my 'get a life' comment, instead of assuming that it was directed at any of you.

Thank you for your comments. I'll be sure to be more specific in the future.

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I think a lot of the discussion here was because many of us liked the book, found it really terrific, and then were trying to make sense of the man who wrote it and the book itself. There seemed to be a great disconnect between the two, and that's always good fodder for discussion.

The man's views of homosexuality don't just border of insanity. To me, they cross the line. Such intolerance and hatred from a man who claims to be a devout follower of a pseudo-Christian religion. Isn't that something worth discussing? Isn't trying to understand what's behind all that a worthwhile endeavor?

Anyway, I think that's what a lot of the psychobabble was about. If it offended you, you probably should have stopped reading it.

C

Absolutely correct, your premise for this forum is worthy of discussion and that is why I have enjoyed reading all the responses. I suppose my question would have to be, where was that discussion in the Solon article you referenced in the beginning. I don't recall anything of any significance being discussed about Card and his personal views. I do remember reading many paragraphs about Ender and Harry Potter and how their actions and reactions should be interpretted.

I suppose because of that article I misinterpretted what this forum was actually about. For that I appologize. Perhaps you should have cited an article that actually discussed Orson Scott Card and his world view.

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Oops, I did it again. Sorry Cole, my profound appologies. I got lost among the postings here and assigned the initial posting on the topic to you and i was wrong. Freethinker is the party in question. Sigh. But it does seem that the forum topic might have changed a bit in the course of the discussion and i didn't adequately make that transition.

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Addym-- I was an early member of Awesome Dude when it first started and then disappeared for a few years before coming back in the summer in 2012. When I returned, I was a bit thin skinned and on my first weekend back, I blew up online about something that doesn't matter now and caused quite a kerfuffle. I have since, I hope, learned to let things roll off my back and understand that sometimes I and others write things that are occasionally misinterpreted or misunderstood. I have found the members of Awesome Dude to be some of the nicest and most understanding guys on any board I have ever visited. Some of the closest friends I have on the Internet are on this board. The article on Salon which I linked was just something I thought had some interesting comments. Perhaps we have all gotten off on the wrong foot. I've read your profile and you seem like a fascinating person. I would like to read some of your work and I have no doubt that you could make a great contribution to the Awesome Dude community. Don't take anything in this thread personally. I would suggest perhaps posting about something interesting you've read and commenting on it. I am sure you will find us to be eager to discuss it and to share our views with you. As a fifty-six year-old who also enjoys science fiction, as well as several other genres, I think you will find we and other members of the board have a lot in common.

Part of the backstory to this thread was another thread in which we were debating whether or not to see the Ender's Game movie in that we all seem to have strong opinions about Orson Scott Card's views on homosexuality and what some see as homoerotic themes within his writing. This has been a subject of great debate on the board for quite a while. if there are other books you enjoy or work involving the GLBT community, please share your views with us. I'm sure we would all like to read them and discuss them.

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