Why new writers (if they're any good) hate what they write and why they quit

[Merkin]

Beginning a story with a quote is one way to pull the reader in very quickly....

Forshadowning is a good way to keep people's interest and involvement.... Changing from strict chronological reporting of events by using flashbacks and cutting forward in time really engages the reader and helps draw him into the story.

I took the liberty of bolding some of what you say, Cole, for I agree wholeheartedly with the points you make so long as we as writers keep the reader we are aiming toward at the forefront of our undertaking. Although some writers like to experiment in wild and wonderful ways, and like to say that they are writing only to satisfy themselves and if they happen to please a reader along the way that is an unexpected bonus for their effort, I think those posturings are so much malarkey. Story-telling is always a transaction, and it takes the commitment of a reader for it to succeed. We can break rules or ignore them completely, but if such experimentation succeeds only in putting the reader off--that is to say, if our story doesn't draw the reader in and communicate to him, it is so much wasted effort.

[Gee Whillickers]

One of the things that most endears me to writing is that there are no rules.

But that widespread freedom we enjoy as writers is intoxicating. I can't think of any other place in life where we're so free. We can put something on paper anyway we wish, in any form we like. We only have our own imaginations to limit us.

This is so true, and one of the reasons writing can be so much fun. We can literally create entire universes, entire human beings, entire scenarios and events. All in our heads, then on screen or paper. As long as they're plausible (and this can vary greatly depending on the type of story and context), consistent, and well written, the possibilities are almost endless.

[vwl]

No rules, true. But if a story is to be communicated to another human being, there are rules.

[Cole Parker]

Well, sure. I didn't mean that. I meant you're free to break all the rules you want, but if your intent is to have it read, you have to make it readable and interesting. So there are constraints, but rules? Didn't ee cummings eschew capitalization in some of his poetry? That's certainly breaking rules that no one else had dared to, but the poetry was still readable, and often lauded. Didn't James Joyce give new vitality to the run-on sentence and cause English teachers to turn in their graves? Oh, wait, it was English teachers who insisted their students read his stuff.

That's the kind of rule breaking I meant. Creative rule breaking that has a purpose and makes the storytelling unique. But still accessible.

C

[vwl]

I don't think Cole and I are really that far apart on the issue. The problem, I see, as that many new writers don't know the rules first and so don't know how to break them creatively. Too often in this arena, run-on sentences just result from lack of knowledge of grammar, word usage and punctuation rather than conscious breaking of the rules. I suspect that e.e. cummings and James Joyce first wrote in standard forms and then broke away, just as Picasso's first works were more representational -- in the impressionist sense -- before his foray into cubism and abstract art.

We need to encourage young and first-time writers, but writing in accordance with writing standards is what most of them need to learn -- through our beta and editing process.

[Cole Parker]

I'm in 100% agreement with that.

C

[The Pecman]

One of the things that most endears me to writing is that there are no rules. Well, Pec would differ with that vigorously, but it's true. Wherever you can quote me a rule, I can show you places in literature where it's been broken. Then we get to decide if we agree with the license that's been taken or if we don't.

No, no -- I've said many times that the only real rule is don't be boring. Everything else is merely a guideline, and there are always exceptions where breaking it and going in a different direction can work.

The real issue is that when one of these rules are broken by Dickens or Hemingway, they can get away with it. I don't think any of us are good enough to even sharpen their pencils. I think VWL has it right, that most writers (especially new writers) break ordinary rules of grammar, spelling, structure, and common sense, and everything falls apart very quickly after that.

I just re-read Edmund White's classic gay biographical work A Boy's Own Story, and was reminded of how he kind of threw the rules of structure out the window and just kind of randomly covered certain incidents from his life in a kind of non-chronological way. I think White is a brilliant writer in many ways, but I wonder if a more conventional structure might have actually benefitted this particular book. On the other hand, as I said elsewhere, you get a movie like Pulp Fiction, which almost starts at the beginning, then moves to the end, then jumps back to the middle, and yet it somehow all makes sense. Same with Godfather II, almost half of which is a flashback that takes place 50 years earlier. Perhaps if either were told in a more conventional way, they wouldn't be as entertaining. The difference there is, writers like that are brilliant, and I don't think I see many writers quite at that level on the net.

[DesDownunder]

No, no -- I've said many times that the only real rule is don't be boring. Everything else is merely a guideline, and there are always exceptions where breaking it and going in a different direction can work.

The real issue is that when one of these rules are broken by Dickens or Hemingway, they can get away with it. I don't think any of us are good enough to even sharpen their pencils. I think VWL has it right, that most writers (especially new writers) break ordinary rules of grammar, spelling, structure, and common sense, and everything falls apart very quickly after that.

I just re-read Edmund White's classic gay biographical work A Boy's Own Story, and was reminded of how he kind of threw the rules of structure out the window and just kind of randomly covered certain incidents from his life in a kind of non-chronological way. I think White is a brilliant writer in many ways, but I wonder if a more conventional structure might have actually benefitted this particular book. On the other hand, as I said elsewhere, you get a movie like Pulp Fiction, which almost starts at the beginning, then moves to the end, then jumps back to the middle, and yet it somehow all makes sense. Same with Godfather II, almost half of which is a flashback that takes place 50 years earlier. Perhaps if either were told in a more conventional way, they wouldn't be as entertaining. The difference there is, writers like that are brilliant, and I don't think I see many writers quite at that level on the net.

Well Pulp fiction bored me to tears. Too much testosterone laden chitty chat in people's lives which have no interest for me.

As for writers on the Net, I think we are seeing many excellent writers including yourself, Pec.

Try reading Chris James' Singer Without A Song along with his other stories, and of course nearly everything written by Cole Parker, Just to mention two.

I think that our stories are often seen as nothing more than their character's sexual relationships. Sometimes it is, but there is also a wealth of effort being made to create whole new worlds and genres about gay peoples' lives.

There has been a significant growth in the number of stories that tackle various aspects of the human condition by characters who just happen to be gay. These are not the sexual exploits of just porn. I'm not saying that porn cannot be a means to a literary end. Indeed, the bawdy tales of previous historical periods clearly shows otherwise.

Good writers develop a style...a voice...which are the trademark of the author even when writing in different genres.

It is discouraging for a creative writer to see an opinion that no one can achieve anything that would prove they are capable of being more than a pencil sharpener. With all respect, please Pec, try to find a way to encourage us. Your experience and insight is very valuable.

[DesDownunder]