Unpopular look at history

[Cole Parker]

Sounds a bit like revisionist history, huh?

C

[Chris James]

Interesting to note that many Native American societies had the opinion that strangers were to be welcomed and offered protection, food and shelter. This was also common among nomadic Arabs in the Middle East, at least it was.

The Pilgrims would have been pitied for their lack of skills, but the views of their faith towards the heathen tribes had to stand in the way of progress. If I offer your starving family food and you condemn me for being half naked then a big F.U., feed the food to the dogs.

[DesDownunder]

"How Did Radical Islam Get Spread Throughout the World?"

[Pertinax]

I am a professional historian (retired), and I must say the history presented in the first paragraph of this thread is the most screwed up version I've read since I no longer grade freshman tests. I could not go on to the second paragraph.

[Bruin Fisher]

the first paragraph of this thread

Errr... which paragraph do you mean, Pertinax? I looked back and found the first paragraph to be "Some of you who have been following this thread might find the following of interest:" I didn't find that particularly objectionable?

[colinian]

Could Pertinax be referring to the MSN article referenced in the first post?

Colin

[Joe]

Nigel is completely accurate in his assessment "of the establishment of Israel." This was one of the last gasps of the dying colonial world and it was, as with most gasps, incoherent, and convulsive. And there was certainly no consideration given to the peace of the neighborhood when this last spasm occurred. The problem with alleged Holocaust deniers is not so much that they deny the Holocaust, it is that they note that the perpetrators of the Holocaust were from allegedly Christian nations. Why, then, was it Muslim land that was stolen to atone for this crime? A question as yet unanswered. Now is the time when someone will start dusting off an assortment of Bronze Age arguments to demonstrate that the Jews have some special claim to that acreage. If we accept that, well, let's see, perhaps we should give Georgia back to the Cherokee and see how that works. Mind we have to do it the same way, the current property owners have to be expelled, their rights obliterated, and then they can be second class minimum wage laborers. That'll work well I'm sure we would all agree.

Finally there are what might be called the 'realpolitik' considerations. There are somewhere in the vicinity of twenty million Jews in the world (I've been accused of inflating the number); there are somewhere in the vicinity of one and a half billion Muslims in the world and it has been estimated that one hundred million of those are young men of military age. These are the demographic facts that haunted Ariel Sharon and haunt the modern state of Israel. As with the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judea, and the medieval kingdom of Jerusalem, it only requires a capable commander and some temporary unity and all these countries came crashing down. For the modern state of Israel to survive, she must figure out a way to wage peace. There is no other option and God is not going to do anything about it.

[ChrisR]

Errr... which paragraph do you mean, Pertinax? I looked back and found the first paragraph to be "Some of you who have been following this thread might find the following of interest:" I didn't find that particularly objectionable?

You're looking at page 2, Bruin. I'm pretty sure that the first paragraph on page 1 is a bit more open to controversy. :)

[Bruin Fisher]

You're looking at page 2, Bruin. I'm pretty sure that the first paragraph on page 1 is a bit more open to controversy. :)

Thanks, ChrisR, you're absolutely right. Yes...

[JamesSavik]

It is foolish to blame people today for things that happened centuries ago. All that creates is well deserved resentment.

[Joe]

But the abuses of the Christians didn't stop centuries ago. Many of them are of quite recent origin which helps keep the memory of the older abuses fresh and vibrant. It is interesting and ironic to note that during the Middle Ages, many Jews fled the Inquisition and the pogroms in Christian lands and lived without persecution in Muslim lands. Not too long ago, during my lifetime in fact, the US and Great Britain combined to overturn the democratically elected prime minister of Iran and replace him with a tin pot autocrat of the worst possible sort, the shah. Why two democracies would do this seems incomprehensible until,of course, we remember oil. A recurring theme for many of the other abuses were on the same theme. I continue to wonder what were the real reasons for the war in Iraq. Either the leaders of the US were inept bunglers of the worst sort, or there was another reason than WMD and nuclear fantasy, and those require the acceptance of massive ineptitude bordering on applied stupidity. One could go on, but I'll mention only one more, that being the creation of the modern state of Israel. This was the last spasm of the colonial mentality that seemed to feel it was perfectly okay to give the land belonging to one group of people, to another, just as it were, because.

Muslims who oppose this, an overwhelming majority I suspect, are frequently labeled 'Holocaust deniers' and dismissed. But they're not really holocaust deniers (there are plenty of those in 'Christian' countries too). Rather, they don't quite understand why a Holocaust perpetrated against Jews and others by the nationals of Christian countries should result in the seizure of Muslim lands and the exile of a Muslim population that had been in place for generations.

Now is when we hear a lot of Bronze Age religious arguments. But, even if one wants to lend credence to those arguments, it must be remembered that the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judea did not last long, the kingdom of Jerusalem did not last long, and the modern state of Israel faces the same inexorable demographic forces that those earlier nations faced. There are some twenty million Jews in the world (and I'm frequently told that number is too large). There are some one and a half billion Muslims in the world. It is estimated that there are one hundred million young Muslim men of military age. These are the numbers that kept Ariel Sharon awake at night and they've not gone away. The modern state of Israel must figure out a way to wage peace with her neighbors if she is to survive.

And as for those who seek solace in religious arguments, it is well to remember that God "is on the side of the big battalions." As God has always been.

[Joe]

I apologize for sounding off twice. It was my inexperience with the site coupled with the absence of my technical advisor (soon to be 11) that caused the problem.

[Merkin]

Your points were worth repeating, Joe.

[Cole Parker]

If anyone has an 11-year-old going spare, I could use a tech adviser now and then as well.

C

[ChrisR]

Part of the issue must be "On whose authority have these lands been given to [fill in the name]?" The only time the whole world ostensibly agreed to resetting boundaries was with the UN's creation of Israel. How's that gone so far?

Should we have carved the Jewish state out of the Nazi holdings? I'm not all that sure the Jews were all that interested in living there for starters, pretending the previous two decades hadn't occurred and saying "Guten Tag" to their neighbors. The Arabs as a whole had not been particularly anti-Axis, so punishing them by taking away miles and miles of nothingness seemed to be a minimal problem.

But if we undo that 75-year-old pact (at the likely cost of a spasmodic nuclear conflict) then where does it stop? Who would care to redraw the lines of the Middle East, or Africa, or Asia, or the Americas, or Europe? If time is the factor, we need to reassemble the USSR and apologize for the thirty years of inconvenience. If time is no factor, then why stop with Georgia and the Cherokee? Let's give it all back, if the tribal remnants can prove their old boundaries. Of course the newly-displaced Americans will have to figure out which national ancestry they choose. I suspect Ireland is going to be one whopping crowded place. Come to think of it, doesn't North Ireland dissolve if we look at the cnquering done by those English bastards? ETC., ETC., ETC.

The argument for everybody hopping onto the Wayback Machine may have its merits, but time and people change. Our focus needs to be on the future and, perhaps, the very recent past. Perhaps Israel should be told to pull out of its occupied territories and back to its 1947 boundaries. Mind you, who exactly will enforce such an order? And does Russia have to give up its chunks of Georgia ( the other Georgia!) and Ukraine? Should the US cede Hawaii? Do we keep Alaska because we bought it fair and square or do we surrender it to the local natives who never had a say?

It's all a pretty specious argument unless it deals with something happening TODAY. Does anybody have a concrete suggestion? And please don't start off with "First thing we do..." unless you have a mouse in your pocket. Tell us who does it and how it's enforced. And let there be fluffy bunnies, purring cats, and peace on earth.

Humbug.

[Joe]

The borders of the modern state of Israel will not be redrawn. They will cease to exist. When we discuss the Israeli-Palestinian situation we are talking about something that is happening today. And the odds, overwhelmingly, are against Israel. I'm not saying this as a pro or con position, simply an observation of some historical facts as well as some current ones. As I said, and what seems apparent from history, the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judea and the medieval kingdom of Jerusalem all lasted for a short period of time before they were swallowed by the demographics of the period. The odds are that the same will happen here, and for the very same reason.

I do not think that the Israeli nuclear capacity will be a factor. It's hard to see how nuking Bethlehem would be tactically sound.

I did not mean to imply that there was going to be a worldwide redrawing of borders. If there is to be one, I suspect that the concerns of the people on the ground will have to be factored into the action. This was not done with Israel. The population was simply evicted and reduced to second or third class. In historic times, the displaced population would have been slaughtered or sold into slavery. Those options are no longer available. But the situation hasn't been rectified at all, it continues to fester and the number of people in those festering areas, continues to grow. It's a recipe for disaster.

I would love to see peace in the Middle East, but I doubt it will happen in my life time.

[Cole Parker]

When today's Israel was created on land that was basically wasteland at the time, I don't remember much dissent from Palestinians. I've always wondered how much of today's animosity from that sector is due to envy, due to how the Israelis have built a thriving country where they themselves have not been able to succeed to a similar degree.

C

[Joe]

It was anything but wasteland. Land of Milk & Honey as some would have it. It was not as well developed as it is now, but that's no surprise. The region had been impacted by two world wars and the fall of the Ottoman Empire, it was anything but stable. There was militant dissent from Palestinians as well as other locals and more than just a few shots were fired and grenades tossed. Well it could be envy. Whatever it is, the problem is not being solved and the displaced population and their allies continue to grow in strength and numbers. They have a remarkable system of tunnels as a result of expert help from Iranian army engineers.

Please know that I have no skin in the game. I'm something of a military historian as a result of Vietnam and I tend to look at a lot of these questions and wonder: why? Why did the Japanese think they had a chance to win WW II? They took on the US, the empires of Holland, France, and Britain, and a nice land war in China. There were never enough Japanese to win. What did we think we were doing in Vietnam? The French experience ought to have made it clear that there was more going on there than peasants in big hats?

[Cole Parker]

Hubris?

C

[Chris James]

An opinion:

It can't be just religion that fuels the flames in the Middle East, there are such distinct cultural differences. The figurehead of God seems to be about the same for all those religions. The God of Abraham is Old Testament, the God of Jesus was also Abraham's God (Matthew, New Testament), and even the latecomer Mohammad mentions that the God of Islam (Allah means 'the God') was Abraham's God. Seems like God is not doing his job.

Pre-Islam, the Arab world was a mixed bag of religious belief although Zoroaster seemed primary thanks to the Iranians. The prophet cult was strong when Mohammed came along and from early teachings in the Quran it seems that prophets of all religions were to be respected, and Jesus was seen as one of them. So what happened? Why has Islam changed in attitude towards other religions?

The teachings in the Quran are subject to the whims of the Islamic religious leaders...that should sound familiar to Christians. The other thing is that in order to be a good Muslim the faithful need to learn their lessons from the Quran in Arabic. Used to be that the Bible was only written in Latin, a language only the scholars of the Catholic Church understood. So here we have centuries of civilization where the two major holy books can only be understood by the priests/Imams of the religion. How convenient for them.

Palestine, and thus Jerusalem, has become a religious focal point for all of the main contenders, although the Christians seem content just to visit these days. But even the Arabs living there are not a majority Palestinian, they are refugees from other nations who have been there for decades. I would agree that a lot of the animosity is based upon jealousy towards the Jewish State and the progress they have made since the founding of Israel.

I am reminded of comments made by a Swiss doctor working for Doctors Without Borders which appeared in the news some years ago. The constant warfare between Israeli forces and the terrorist factions in Gaza had destroyed much of the infrastructure...houses, utility services and hospitals. The doctor said that several international NGO's had sent building materials into Gaza to rebuild a hospital and the military factions had seized the material to build bunkers. This is the kind of mentality any outside mediators face in trying to create a compromise.

No doubt the irrational in Gaza will continue to lob rockets into Israel and get bombs in return...this has been going on for years. Civilian deaths are blamed on Israel, and not because the poor residents are the target but because the terrorists hide behind them. It is unfortunate that the God of Abraham promised Moses that there would be no repeat of the flood that destroyed the world because the Middle East could use a good cleansing. Unfortunately for the Arab population the Israelis seem to have all the boats.

[Nigel Gordon]

The god of Abraham is Yahweh, a aspect of a minor Sumarian God El, in the aspect of Yahweh is a minor war god. It seems he is living up to his designation. Particularly that of being the God responsible for ongoing strife!

[Pertinax]

The first paragraph as I read it begins with "Well he's done it again" and ends with "Protestantism was inevitable."

As to the problems with Israel and/or Palestine, I admit I have no solution. Restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem, maybe?

Seriously, though, if you take a long view, it's obvious that the peoples in that part of the world have been killing each other for centuries, and the only times they have stopped is when someone else came in and forced them to stop. Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks. The crusaders never had control of all the lands on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean, so I guess they can't be counted. The French and British after World War I (marginal). So, I'm not very sanguine about any solution that I've encountered.

[Nigel Gordon]

When today's Israel was created on land that was basically wasteland at the time, I don't remember much dissent from Palestinians. I've always wondered how much of today's animosity from that sector is due to envy, due to how the Israelis have built a thriving country where they themselves have not been able to succeed to a similar degree.

There had been massive objections to the influx of Jews to Palestine from the very start. From 1920, when the British Mandate was established, to 1940 a major element in British foreign policy was, as is clearly shown in William Stevenson's "Spymistress", was to prevent Jewish immigration to Palestine because of Arab objections. At the end of the British Mandate in 1948 you get the first Arab-Israeli war - which was caused directly by Palestinian objections to the take over of their land.

During the 1948 Arab-Israeli war the Grand Mufti called on the Palestinian population of Israel to flee the occupied lands, which many did, forming the Palestinian refugees. Israel ceased all the abandoned property. At the end of the war it refused to allow the refugees to return to their homeland and their property, all of which was confiscated without any compensation (technically a breach of international law).

The establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine was opposed by the Palestinian population from the start of the Zionist movement in the 19th century. Now Israel is doing everything in its power to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and a Palestinian homeland, mostly by establishing illegal settlements in areas of the West Bank which would form part of such a state.

[Stophl]

I think it is a bit beside the point to debate how Israel came into existence or whether it rightfully exists. Israel is a fact and several generations of Israelis have grown up there. They claim Israel as their own with the same right as Australians, Kiwis, Canadians and ultimately Americans claim their countries as their own. Given the histories of pogroms culminating in the Holocaust and increasing antisemitic attacks in Europe I don't think Israelis would give up lightly the only homeland they have.