Graeme
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Thanks, EleCivil,
Can you tell me why you gave up? Too boring at the start? Too much character background information being supplied and not enough happening to keep the interest?
I would like at some stage to go back and try to fix chapter one, but I would like some suggestions on what you feel is going wrong. Suggestions on how to fix it would be even more appreciated! :D
Thanks,
Graeme
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I've been putting off reading any new stories because it tends to take me away from writing my own. However, tonight I was in the mood to read something new instead of writing, and Leaves and Lunatics got the nod.
I was very impressed! (not that that is very hard, so don't read too much into that
). As a reader, I think I have to disagree with Pecman. There is sufficient interest in the story that trying to make the plot stronger would run the risk of taking the interest away from the central characters. Not every reader wants a story that "moves".Probably my only criticism would be that after the strong development of the two lead characters and to a lesser extent Jerry, Andrew and Jill seem very pale in comparison. They seem to be playing a sufficiently major role in the story that developing them further seems imperative.
My opinion only, of course :D
Graeme
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Ummm, excuse me, but now that four chapters are up, does anyone have any constructive criticisms?
This is the first thing I have written since school (which is WAY too long ago) and, while Aaron has done a brilliant job of editting, I can't believe no one (apart from WBMS) has anything to say that can help me improve my writing.
Graeme :?
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Hi, Blue,
At this point in time, I'm not intending to do anything more with this. Of course, if inspiration strikes, I reserve the right to change my mind...
The main problem is how to continue it without destroying it. The ideas I had were:
a) Using it as the introduction to a more traditional story told from Tommy's POV
b) Having a prayer by either Tommy or Brad
c) Using it as an introduction to the scene at the next Sunday School when Miss Sally is asked some difficult questions...
None of these really appeal to me at the moment.
For a moment I thought of having God reply, but that's been done before and I don't think I could do it justice :D
Graeme
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Thanks, WBMS.
I've always felt that the first chapter was the weakest, but I've had trouble working out how to make it stronger. After agonising several times on it, I eventually gave up and moved onto the rest of the story.
If you have any suggestion, I'll be happy to take them on. I've already re-written parts of that chapter a couple of times, and if I can make it better, it's something I'd like to do (even if it's awhile before I get back to doing it).
Paul said to me when I was first writing it, chapters one and two are really two sections of one chapter. I've always felt that both chapters had to be published together, and Paul was just saying that in a different way.
Graeme
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As stated in the intro, some chapters are currently hosted on DeweyWriter's forum.
I should warn you that the early chapters at DeweyWriter will NOT be quite the same as posted here.
Paul (gpaulbishop) was one of my early editors (and pointed me in the direction of this site as well). From chapter four, he got Aaron from the mailcrew involved in the editing as well. I was so impressed by Aaron's work that I've had him re-edit the first few chapters as well (after I went back and fixed the worst of the problems). Because I was ALSO hassling him to edit the new chapters, AND he also does the editing for Ryan Keith and at least one other author that I'm aware of, it's taken him a bit of time to come back with these early chapters. The wait has definitely been worthwhile, though.
So the delay has been because I've wanted Aaron to go over the early chapters, but I also told him to give it low priority, as he has a lot of other commitments.
Finally, taking the risk of hijacking the thread, today is Aaron's 16th birthday -- so here is another public thank you to the Wunderkid who's made such a difference to the story.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY AARON!
Graeme
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Thanks, Dude!
I want to say up front that I have already written ten chapters of the story, so if it looks like I'm not taking the feedback onboard, it's just that most of the story is already written. I am intending to write more, but I'm waiting until I can get some advice on what I've done so far. :D
Graeme
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Nice to see you here, Ryan. I hope you keep coming back.
Graeme
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In the various stories I've read that include foreign languages (for the record, I only know English), I haven't had a problem when the meaning of the foreign phrase can be derived from the context. Julian May's Millenium SF story is a good example. It has French scattered throughout the story, but it's always pretty clear what is being said from the context.
eg. A question was asked in French. Another character replies "Thanks" and takes a drink from a whisky flask. It was obvious that the question was asking if they wanted a drink.
It's when the phrase defines the context, or contains important information; that's when a translation should be provided.
My opinion only, of course.
Graeme
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As part of an email discussion with Ryan about One Life, I made the comment people read stories for different reasons -- and the same person can have different reasons at different times.
The traditional "feel-good" story definitely has a place. For people like Dude, it's a break -- a retreat to a "better" place than the reality they encounter in their daily lives. It can also help bring someone back from the edge (see The MailCrew - how it started for an example).
A tragedy, such as One Life, also has a place. It can help show that life can go on, and while pain persists, joy can return. This can be an important lesson sometimes. It may also simply help someone by showing that they are not alone in what they are going through.
Sometimes a story can just educate. By showing circumstances that a person can relate to, or can understand, they can learn more about what could be going on, and may take some action. I will admit that reading several stories about fostering of gay teens has made me interested in the idea of becoming a foster parent.
I'm sure others can think of many examples, or other "purposes" of a story. The above are just a few that I've come up with.
Graeme[/url]
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My view on this is that what makes the stories interesting to both the writer and the reader is the conflict that arises between the "straight" and "gay" elements. If you eliminate the "straight" elements, then you end up with a situation that is effectively the same as if you had eliminated the "gay" elements - ie. a fairly standard story, presumably on relationships.
Of course, it's quite possible to do so. However, if anything "defines" gay fiction, it has to be the conflict between gay and straight. Otherwise, take any typical "straight" story and simply change the sex of one of the members of the "love interest" to make it a "gay" story.
As you mentioned, Paul, there are stereotypes within the "gay sub-culture", and exploring these could be used to provide the conflict required to hold the readers attention. This is, however, more difficult to do successfully (at least for the less experienced writers). It is also, probably, interesting to a smaller community of readers.
My opinion only, of course, so feel free to disagree (as if anyone on this board would hesitate :roll: ) :D
Graeme
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I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I disagree that more foreshadowing was required.
The end of chapter 5 was sufficient, in my opinion, to indicate that SOMETHING was going to happen that involved Tyler's father. Just because it wasn't kept in the foreground does not make invalid.
In a completely different thread, there were discussions on how much conflict is too much. In that thread, it was argued that as long as events were a logical conclusion of previous events and actions, then those events are acceptable.
The previous chapters had, apparently as a sub-plot, shown Tyler breaking from his dad, and that the break was NOT amicable. The end of chapter 5 then brought this squarely back into focus.
While the appearance at the wedding was shocking, both the appearance and the actions were perfectly reasonable and within character for the father.
Just my opinion only, and I'll admit that I'm biased in Ryan's favour.
Graeme
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Hi, Gabe,
I haven't written a response before now, because I don't think I know enough to offer constructive criticism. I read the posts and then went to read the story.
I agree - there is something missing from the story, but for the life of me, all I can come up with is its "flat" -- whatever that means :roll:
I thought the actual writing was great -- the scoutmaster, in particular, was a character that quickly gained some depth.
Was it too predictable?
Were there insufficient emotions being presented from the protaganist?
As I said at the start, I'm just not experienced enough to be able to say what it was that I thought it was lacking -- sorry.
Graeme
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I remember reading once that accents are more often on the different ways of saying the vowels. Certainly, that's the essential difference between the Australian and New Zealand accents (the i and e pronounciations are effectively swapped).
For me, the word "sought" is pronounced exactly the same as the word "sort" which rhymes with "abort".
Graeme
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Sought and abort don't rhyme
Ummmm... When spoken in Australia, they do...
I'm not sure, but I believe they rhyme in most English (as distinct to American) pronounciations.
Happy to be proven wrong, of course :D
Graeme
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What i meant by that is that it involves great pain and loss to many people...very nearly everyone involved: the children, the wife, the husband who is at the epicenter, and not uncommonly the other love interest. how is that not tragic? Particularly if it's brought on by a willful ignoring of one's nature at an earlier age? I recognize that this is not always the case, but most of the men in this position that I talk to tell me that they had a pretty good idea about this stuff before they got married, and for one reason or another continued forward with the marriage anyway.
aj,
I understand what you are saying, and yes, many families in this situation end up in tragedy. I can speak with some confidence on this as I am currently going through the same issue.
In my case, though, my wife and I have decided that we want to stay together as a married couple - not just staying together for the sake of the children. We are only just starting this process and it's not easy. From what we have been told, only 15% of couple even try to stay together, and only 7% actually make it. Luckily, the 15% is a statistic, not a probability, and we are automatically in it because we want to try. Our chances are also enhanced because I do NOT have an "other love interest" - my coming out to my wife was for different reasons (honesty being the main one).
I have to disagree with the term "willful" that you used. The situation is rarely as simple as that. In my case, I did not "ignore" my nature, but instead was incredibly fearful of the consequences of accepting it. "Willful" was certainly NOT what I was doing.
Having said that, I sincerely loved my wife when I proposed, and I still love her today. If you look at percentages, I'd probably say that I'm 80% homosexual and 20% hetrosexual. Yes, I knew I was gay before we married, but I am certainly NOT unhappy in my marriage. I can dream about what life I could have had if I'd gone down another path, but then I wouldn't have the life I have now (including two wonderful children).
Last weekend I said to my wife, "We can't regret the things that could have been. We just have to celebrate the things we have."
I'm now off to continue my celebration.
Graeme
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Although this is not a "bail point" for me, it was less than enjoyable reading.
Dude, I have to ask - was it less than enjoyable simply because you were looking for, or expecting, a "feel-good" story?
I will admit that I ran through a gamut of emotions reading chapter five. The ending, in particular, was very much heart-felt. The emotions were not always positive.
Does this make it less enjoyable? If I'm looking for something to make me feel good, then I'd have to say yes. If I'm looking for something that I can emotionally relate to, then I would have to say no.
The ending is obviously setting things up for something to happen in chapter six that is not going to be "feel-good", though the outcome may be - depends on where Ryan wants to take the story, and how well he writes it.
Maybe I can just relate more to depressing stories than you (though I hate reading them) but the most memorable parts of stories I've read are usually split pretty much evenly between points of triumph, tragedy and significant plot twists.
Graeme
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A lot can also depend on where the "bail point" occurs in the story. In "The Least of These", that rape scene was so far in that I was already hooked. It was also not overly explicit. On the other hand, the opening chapter of "The Wednesday Boy" hit my bail point. I will admit that it's because Keith is such a great writer that I bailed. I felt the situation too strongly for me to be able to continue the story. If it was someone who didn't create such evocative images, I may have continued.
Driver, in "The Quarry", had what could be considered a "bail point", but he prefixed it by having the narrator start by saying he was about to describe his descent into hell. This gave me some warning on what was to come, plus gave some hope that there was going to be some light at the other end. In my case, I read it at the worst possible time - I read the "bad" chapters late at night, and wasn't able to get to the following "good" chapters for over a day. However, the ending of that story is so upbeat, I'm glad I persisted.
These are examples of "bail points" that are because I became very uncomfortable with the subject matter. The serialisation approach makes these even worse, because it may be weeks before you get a resolution to the stress. In the case of "The Quarry", I was reading it after it was finished, so I got over it quickly. If it was still being serialised, I may not have gone back to it for weeks, or even months.
Other "bail points" have simply been because the story's appeared to drift for a few chapters, and I just couldn't be bother going back to them. Sometime later, I may go back and catch up and, in at least one case, re-discover the enjoyment I found in the story.
Regards,
Graeme
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I just wanted to say that I'm finding this particular thread extremely interesting.
Constructive criticism that is also supportive is often hard to find. I think writebymyself and blue have been doing an excellent job.
I'm looking forward to this thread, and others like it, continuing.
Graeme
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While I like both science fiction and Epic fantasy, I have a soft spot for the fantasy genre.
Only because you asked...
Graeme
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It must be that sexy Aussie accent that has them distracted.
Thanks for the complement 8) For the record though, Australians don't have an accent - everyone else does...
Graeme
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aussie_gw wrote:
My personal complaint is where authors heap large amounts of unrelated conflict on the main character.
Give us an example. To me, as long as the conflict carries the story forward, and it doesn't come from out of nowhere, I don't see the problem.
I agree that as long as conflict carries the story forward, I don't have a problem. However, when it stops me from being able to suspend my disbelief, it detracts from my enjoyment of the story.
One example (and no offense intended to the author - I enjoyed the story, but I found this grated):
1. Gay youth going through a tortured series of misunderstandings with his boyfriend, resulting in relationship breakup and the boyfriend ending up with someone else.
2. Gay youth also has an anonymous stalker that keeps sending threatening notes.
3. Gay youth's best friend (who he started having a relationship with after falling out with first boyfriend, as described above) is killed in a car accident.
4. The best friend's former girlfriend is dying of a incurable disease.
5. It turns out the best friend and his former girlfriend had a baby boy a few years ago. The baby was put in foster care, in another state. As part of the best friends will, the gay youth is asked to become the young boy guardian.
6. The young boy, and one of his foster brothers, turns out to be being physically abused by the foster dad. The gay youth becomes the guardian of both.
I'll leave off the details of the various gay bashings and abuse that also occured in the story. Those, I could accept as I could connect them to other events that had occured. These conflicts are not "unrelated", but reasonable extrapolations of past events. As it turns out, the stalker is also an extrapolation of past events, but with the added throw-in of a mental illness on the stalkers behalf to explain the extreme nature of the homophobic response.
A few of these, I could accept. I could even accept the best friend/girl friend/baby boy situation if that was the premise for the story. But when it appears as an extra to the rest of the story, I just had trouble maintaining my disbelief.
Based on what I've read, being the parent of gay teenager increases your chances of being killed in a car accident by a dramatic degree.I did not intend to imply this for real-life. It's just that I find an uncomfortably large percentage of authors that seem to use this as part of the plot of their stories. Again, I can accept it when it forms part of the premise of the story, but it seems that some authors almost think "I have to introduce some more conflict - I know, lets kill the parents in a car accident".
If I have not made myself clear, please tell me and I'll try to explain it better.
Graeme
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My personal complaint is where authors heap large amounts of unrelated conflict on the main character.
For example:
Based on what I've read, being the parent of gay teenager increases your chances of being killed in a car accident by a dramatic degree.
Now, I can accept this, if this forms the premise of the story, but where it is just one of a stream of disasters to hit the character, then this just pushes my levels of credibility to the limit, and hence detracts from my enjoyment of the story.
I have no problems with large amounts of conflict if you can see a link between them, or if the probabilities are high. So, have religious zealots and other homophobic types around is reasonable. Having family tensions because of a coming out is reasonable. Any major conflicts that can be traced back to some event mentioned earlier is reasonable.
Just my opinion, mainly as a reader, not a writer.
Graeme
). As a reader, I think I have to disagree with Pecman. There is sufficient interest in the story that trying to make the plot stronger would run the risk of taking the interest away from the central characters. Not every reader wants a story that "moves".
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Posted
Thanks! I had several attempts in wording that opening section to make sure it would have that affect without making it sound stilted.
Graeme