aj
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Posts posted by aj
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Hey Blue--
Go on the double date and have fun! Coming out is nerve wracking but it can be fun too... you've already done the hardest part, which is coming out to yourself. Now it's time to reap a few benefits, one of which is hanging out with like-minded guys and talking about this stuff and getting some support.
Go have fun, you!
cheers!
aj
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Oh my dear god, THAT is some seriously funny shit!
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you're right, pecman--anyone who accepts the praise of readers without a filter in place is not very bright. In most reader's cases, they know what they like, but they couldn't tell you why. And thinking that a few flattering notes and validations is the signal that it's ok to stop learning the craft is seriously misguided.
However, I still maintain that the immediate gratification of publishing online is a strength. I know when someone likes my stuff well enough to take the time to send me a note, that i've brought someone some pleasure--and that's the point of all these stories.
And I appreciated the post about the lonely teen out there. Point well taken.
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I'm pretty confident you'll like it. i've read it several times, and still enjoy it each time.
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reminds me of the line from Andrew Marvell: "My vegetable love should grow, vaster than empires and more slow."
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hey TR--
In terms of the comments about multiple protagonists, please note that i rather carefully said that my comments were NOT a criticism. Nothing in the rule book says it can't be done, i'm guessing. I wouldn't know for sure because i don't read the rule book much, as you'll probably figure out rather quickly if you read my short stories
i've noticed the same thing when i'm writing, i.e., the story seeming to write itself. Like you, i set the scene in my mind and it seems things just start flowing out onto the page.
Anyway, cheers to you for the chapter, good show and all that. Look forward to the next.
cheers!
aj
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Mercedes Lackey has written some very fine characters in her "Magics Promise" group of novels, all set in Valdemar.
Diane Duane in "The Door Into..." series paints a world that i want to live in.
The late, great Marion Zimmer Bradley explored the topic in her book "The Catchtrap." She was one of the truly great writers of the genre, and anything she wrote is worth a look or three.
Ricardo Pinto writes a tale about a deeply decadent and cruel world where two young men find one another in "The Chosen" and followed by "The Standing Dead."
I'll end my list with David Feintuch's "The Still," wherein a brat princeling learns to be a man and a king at the hands of his best friend. Definitely worth reading.
cheers!
aj
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Hey TR--
You been busy! Always nice to see new stuff.
"Something about Tom" is a fun little piece. I so identified with things the drama teacher was experiencing, all the self-putdowns and awkwardness. A nice read. And a nice approach, using all the old conventions and making them fresh. I can tell someone has been reading the comments about what not to include in a story and taken them as a challenge.
Chapter 12 of DC:
There's a line in this chapter that hit me hard, from the internal dialogue of Bobby: "It's nice to be talked to, like a person." This little line, given its context, is devastating. For me, it summed up his whole experience at exodus. I appreciated the understated handling of Bobby's experience, and the casual way that you mentioned that he'd been put in a straightjacket--so much more appalling than some overblown description. I'd like to talk to the nurse at the facility alone in the "Quiet Room" for about five minutes--I'd take his/her head off. Such a perversion of what we are about as a profession.
The dialogue between Angel and Gene in the car is very honest, and felt very true to life. It certainly made Angel a more likable character for me...and his reaction to the flowers was very telling as well.
In one of the comments you made on the forum, you said that this piece was going to go on about another hundred pages before winding up. That seems to me like a pretty conservative estimate...You've got a lot of things going on in here, and i think that the things you're going to have to go into in order to maintain the pacing and graceful style this has developed may require a good bit more than 100 pages to finish without dropping anything. Perhaps the sequel you're thinking about may not end up being so much a sequel as a "Book II" kind of thing (the difference is subtle, but real).
Finally, I'm going to ask, not as a criticism but out of curiosity, who is your main character? Were you intending when you started this to have 2? because right now, you do. Gene has pushed into the forefront to the point where he's become not just a major character, but co-protagonist with Angel. To support this, the scene with Angel in the car outside exodus is telling. This is an interaction between the protagonist (angel) and a supporting character (Gene) and it's told from Gene's point of view. That's unusual, and it adds stature to gene's character. And he's gotten a LOT of airtime. You know how i feel about Gene, so i have NO objection to this change of direction, but from the point of view of storytelling, it's something to be aware of--unless, of course, that was the intention all along, in which case it's been subtly and nicely done.
I'm waiting with bated breath for chapter 13.
cheers!
aj
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I liked this story, and i wish i had mentioned it on here as worthy of consideration. I think dude is right--with some work, this could become a very fine story.
cheers!
aj
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Word! He's moved into my short list of literary heroes, write alongside Charles de LInt, Elizabeth Bishop and Gerard Manley Hopkins.
I will disagree on my fave: i liked Control and Kaos really, really well.
cheers!
aj
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I think one of the greatest strengths and weaknesses (depending on your point of view) of the 'net is that anybody can post just about anything, if you find the right site.
Yup, there's a lot of hack writers out there churning out endless and pointless serials (or in my case, pathetically bad short stories) that would never make it into print. And that's a problem that is fairly easy to avoid--just click the mouse.
You see, there's no slushpile on the 'net. No-one weeds out the duds before they before they end up taking up bandwidth on some site somewhere. But that's ok, because we don't have to read 'em if we don't want to.
On the other hand, it's an amazing strength, because people like me can write something that is as good as we can write, and still get it out there and start getting comments on it that encourage and strengthen our desire to write more. The one truth and absolute of writing is that the only way to learn to write is to write. And if someone sends me an email and says "loved the story, when do i get to see more?" I'm motivated to get back to my keyboard and get busy.
cheers!
aj
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Pecman is right. Your artistic values are what has to guide the answers to most of these questions. If, for instance, you asked Poe and Hemingway the question about overly flowery writing, i'm sure you'd get very different answers, and i'm pretty sure that we can all agree that both were at least modestly successful writers.
When it comes to the question of dialog versus narrative, i'd refer you to some of the stories by the brother's Mcphee on ASSGM.net. 'Nuff said about that.
I'll say up front that i've never written a novel, so i can't speak to things sliding into unlooked for places (speaking of which, that sentence did NOT come out sounding like i thought it would) because short stories are all about control. But i do believe i have an idea for a novel, and i know that i'd write myself a little paragraph about what was going to happen in a chapter before i wrote it. I guess i'm, at least potentially, the structured kind of writer, when it comes to pieces that go to novel length. I realize that this may not actually control this problem entirely, but i think it would help.
I don't think there's a problem with using yourself or aspects of yourself as models for your characters. If you don't say otherwise, most of your readers will be none the wiser. And writing a story that explores issues your dealing with is a lot cheaper than weekly therapy.
BTW--i like your long winded and convoluted posts. I learn a lot from them. and i have a few laughs as i go.
cheers!
aj
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Yes, it's true that there are a dirth of plain characters in the genre of gay teen romance. The other writers here have all made good points, and i won't recap. What i would like to add is that when we see a character in one of these stories, we're seeing him through someone else's eyes. It's been my observation that love happens (not always, but most of the time) between oneself and someone that one considers to be beautiful. With the exception of those stories where the writer oh so graciously provides pictures of the characters (sorry if i'm stepping on toes, but it's a pet peeve--i like the pictures in my mind a lot more than some picture of a czech pornstar as my model of what a character looks like), we're seeing the love interest through the eyes of someone who loves that person. And they're going to be beautiful in description, don't you think? I think i'd be hard put to read a story where someone said "He's ugly as hell, his feet stink, his toupee doesn't fit and he has a hunchback, but by God, i love him." Interesting literarary challenge though...hmmm.
cheers!
aj
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Hey, has anyone else read this title over on Nifty in the s-f section? it's a collaboration piece, by two guys. Pretty nice work, i think, with some nicely realized characters. A little sexual in places, but i mostly ignored that and enjoyed the plot line and character development. I reccomend checking it out.
cheers!
aj[/u]
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it was the dyslexia, officer, I swear! that sign that said "Stop"? I thought it said "Tops" so i hurried...
anyway, so this is where i say "DOH!" and smack myself on the forehead. consider it done. Now i know why Dude was so adamant about the name confusion in that story "Everything is Eventual" over on Nifty.
Incidentally Blue: yes, this kind of immediate concern over your status when you're coming out is very normal. You'll probably find yourself at a couple Pride parades over the next couple years too, but don't worry about it. You'll settle into this and pretty soon it will just blend into another facet of who you are, and it'll all be good. After being out for 18 years, i don't even really think of myself as a gay man, just a guy that happens to fall in love with other men.
cheers,
aj
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Hey TR--
just finished reading chapter 11, and i've decided i'm in love with Gene. This chapter is so gentle and quiet and peaceful...yummy.
But i must admit that i'm a little confused, and maybe i'm supposed to be...but i have to ask: how can Jaye be drunk and bashed in the head with a baseball bat and still be on Yahoo talking to Michael and Gene? I'm thinking you're gonna be all sneaky here and spring something on me in the next chapter so i can go "DOH!" and i'll be delighted if you do.
cheers.
aj
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Hey rusticmonk--
if you can blow it apart from everyone else, i'm envious. It'd save me a lot in paying for movies and dinners if i could.
a young man who frequented the parks,
wore knee pads, to avoid grass stains and marks.
His pants were most grateful,
but the looks he got hateful,
so he bought a small camp stool for his larks.
cheers,
aj
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I can see your points (both of you) about Angel, and they make some sense. I guess i'm coming at this from my own past, hauling all my baggage along (several dozen LARGE samsonite pieces, thank you very much). Here's my thinking: as a teen, if someone like Michael had come up to me and told me he loved me, and wanted to be my boyfriend, i'd have pissed my pants (that would have been very attractive, don't you think?) in my hurry to say yes, particularly if i thought he was as attractive as Angel thinks Michael is. But, i also have to say that i went to a very small high school, and the lines between the different social groups were very hazy and unclear, because there were so few of us--the jocks were also the brains, were also the computer nerds, were also the choir geeks, etc. So i couldn't afford to be disaffected by labels the same way these kids are. I had known all my classmates since kindergarten, so i didn't view them the same way. So my experience was very different from that of Angel, and that colors my view.
I think to say that Angel has just been having sex for fun all this time is, at least to some degree, inaccurate. He's already aware of some changes in the way he views that activity from his experience with Jaye, who he's starting to view as more than just a friend with benefits, and maybe it was this preparation that allows him to react to MIchael at all. Lots to think about, in any case.
Please don't think that one reader's comments are sufficent to make you do a re-write, TR. It's flattering to think that my comments are that powerful, but i'm not THAT self-deluded. Most of what you're seeing in my commentary is just how i'm reacting to the characters, and you need to remain true to YOUR vision, not mine. The tale is up and flying, and i think it can stand quite nicely on it's own merits.
cheers,
aj
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so i read chapter 10, and it was hard for me. let me talk about the things that were going right, first.
Overall, the pacing was a lot better and thoughts flowed more fluently. There was an ease of language that i really liked. This was most evident in the 'gene' section, i think. It pulled me in enough that i was feeling real sorrow, watching this guy withdraw more and hardening his heart. Hard to read, but lovely writing.
The description of the play is very nice, almost lyrical. I know, I know, it was a transitional section, just a vehicle for moving on to the party where the real action is, but it was still a very yummy piece of writing, and clearly where your passion for theater comes through. Angel is more clearly realized in this section than in what follows, i think... we get to see what's really driving him.
I liked that the sex in this chapter was handled a lot more discreetly too. It felt like it was advancing the plot, and not being allowed to overwhelm the plot.
I wrote a whole long thing about how i felt this weird dissonance in Angel's character at the party, but i wasn't saying it very well, so let me just say this: there's a coldness and jadedness to angel at the party that didn't match his age
and experience, imo. anybody else troubled by this? maybe i'm off...
cheers,
aj
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please don't. I know that you're a skillful enough writer that if you do it, it will be done deftly, but the truth is that there are very few instances in real life that anyone is able to extract a 'moral' out of a series of events. ambiguity is a big part of the human condition. I think it's better to let the events unfold and let your audience draw their own conclusions. having your characters act in whatever manner you want them to will lead your audience to the conclusion you want them to arrive at. I actually really like the idea of the inconclusive ending...life is seldom a matter of 'cut and dried.'
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IMHO, i think both of these characteristics should be introduced in very matter of fact, unobtrusive way, unless a story is built around such details. mentioning that Mr Friedman, at the end of the debate meet, wheels himself through the dispersing crowd, on his way to the school van...and not giving it anymore airtime than that. Unless mr friedman being jewish is relevant to the tale, i wouldn't mention it. Unless he has need to mention that he attends one of the local synagogues, and then just say it and move on.
Like blue, i think that a lack of diversity in your characters is like leaving the cream filling out of the twinkie---it's still a twinkie, but a lot less interesting. LOL
cheers!
aj
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i've seen the video, and it's actually about one boy's fantasy of falling in love with another. Loved the music though--despite not being really too excited about most trance.
i'm a big Sophie B. Hawkins fan, love Kate Bush, and adore Suzanne Vega (god, if i could write 1/4 as well as that girl does!!).
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first, there is nothing wrong with flirting with someone you're attracted too. the definition of flirting is "Attention without intention." Living in the gay part of town in seattle, i flirt with straight guys all the time, and it's all just good fun and they know it and it's not a problem.
second, there's also nothing wrong with flirting with younger guys. Their reaction will let you know if they are receptive or not. the point of flirting is not to take anything that happens personally (see the definition above). there are a ton of younger guys who like the idea of hanging with an older guy, either for friendship of for more. I have one young friend who is 18 and he and i have a mentor/protege friendship that is quite nice for both of us.
I really like that you just wanna ease into this transition. You seem like you're being very smart about it. Too bad you're in Texas--i'd go out for coffee or lunch with you in a heartbeat (yes, i'm flirting with you).
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in The Raccoon's Den
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CJ Cherryh is good friends with my on-again, off-again correspondent, Lynn Abbey. She has two series of high fantasy books that i would reccomend: The Tree of Jewels, and a following book, the name of which escapes me. The second book is about a young man and his comanion, a pookah, who have a very close--and to me, homoerotic--relationship. Beautifully written--it passed the "Read it till 5am" test with flying colors. The first book is equally amazing, but not discernably gay in content. The second series is "The fortress of..." series, which while not overtly gay, have as the main character one of the most beautifully rendered young men I've ever read.
Speaking of Lynn Abbey, try her book "Siege of Shadows". She's been published for over thirty years, and oh my! does that experience show. it's got a little homoeroticism in it as well, and a very fun and original system of magic. Sadly, the publishers don't seem interested in picking up the sequels to "Siege." I can't imagine why not, but she's ready to go with two more books in the series if she can ever stir enough interest in them.
cheers!
aj