Jamie
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Having walked through the Ardennes and seeing some of the remnants of the great epic battle fought there coupled with the knowledge of the many lives that were lost, I turned to this work with hope and anticipation.
I must say I was not disappointed (and not because it took place in the country I love the most). This is the kind of story that could easily have slipped into cliche, but it didn't. The mood it left me with, even though the ending was sad seemed the logical and right outcome. The folly of war, the death of innocence, the totally of unfairness and the brief yet comforting emotions regarding the love of two boys from two parts of the world, so different yet so much alike, were the perfect mix for this story.
I must agree with AJ, your writing has grown and deepened from the first chapters of DC (although I still love it so much) through to this latest work. I've watched you change styles, play with different (sometimes very different) themes and with each step your craft has advanced.
How do you feel about this? Do you feel you have changed in the time since you started writing? Has writing many different and diverse stories changed your perspective? Has it made you a better writer? Do you now prefer writing more short stories (truely an art in itself) or will you go back to the longer format from time to time?
You can congradulate youself for a great story...
regards
Jamie
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Congrats on the post and good luck. Just remember you are still a citizen of Icaria and while you currently have a green card for the AD site you're only allowed out of the castle for a few hours a day!
Jamie
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Thank you James for the detailed response to my questions. I suspected that a lot of planning and effort went into this and it shows. Also thanks to Jan for supplying the editor?s POV.
Once the project is finished it will be interesting to hear from the individual authors if they choose to make comments on the project.
I know that I?m hooked on it and will continue eagerly anticipate future chapters.
Regards
Jamie
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Having actually been a ghost writer on some projects and an editor on others I can state that they are entirely two different things.
An editor corects, makes or suggestes changes (making a change - even a significant one - is not ghostwriting). Some authors really need a good knock in the head every so often to get or keep them on track, or to illuminate something for the reader that the editor feels they just won't understand. Authors are great in assuming readers will get the gist... that's normal since the author lives and breathes the work and has a much greater and deeper knowldege of the characters, story, background, plot etc. But sometimes we just do successfully convey that to the reader. Our editors keep us honest on that point.
A ghost writer on the other hand actually does all or most of the writing. Ghostwriters are paid to write. They get the cash for writing (although often not the royalities) while another's name goes on the work. They are usually invisable as far as the reader is concerned. You often see this with biographies of famious, or infamous people. The ghost writer through interviews, research or notes or reminances given to them constructs the work. Ghostwriting is actually a very serious craft - not all writers can do it.
Aaron, Graeme is correct positive or negative comments should be made to the author who then passes them on to an editor... when an author gets a comment the editor should see it if it's germane to their work. I always pass positive comments to AJ on TSOI... he puts in a lot of time slogging through my stuff and I feel he deserves to bask in the glow of a positive comment just as much as I do. Negative comments I usually keep to myself unless they are directly related to editing.
And as far as someone criticizing your efforts at editing... just tell them to write a story or edit one.... then let them submit it here, and we'll all stand at the rock pile and lob a few at them... maybe they will have a different appreciatiation of that it is like to write and/or edit.
Regards
Jamie
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James & Graeme,
I'm really pleased that you are willing to respond to my questions. Please take your time. There is no rush on my end.
There's obviously both process and product involved here. For the product I'm more then happy to sit back and read the results of your efforts and see the story unfold naturally along it's plot line. I'm not looking for an "inside" or advanced copy. I love to see a story unfold... the one thing I miss when I write a story of my own is that I know what's going to happen so in those cases I have to enjoy the process because only the reader gets to have the fun of discovering each chapter... so I truely relish it when I get that same treat as a reader.
My questions really are meant to hone in on process as I'm sure you see from the way I framed them.
From your reply Graeme it looks like this is a fairly detailed project... so far what I've read as far as quality indicates that. Why do I get the feeling that Mr. Savik's organizational skills are lurking in the background? :-)
I love the fact that you are using private forums to talk the story over among your selves in order to plan and execute the work. I think that shows in the chapters I have thus far read. You are all taking advantage of the positive features the internet and www give us.
As I've mentioned before I'm not a fan of colaborative efforts, only because I feel so many of them just aren't that good. This definately is an exception... and I'm guessing that the planning and process are a big part of that success.
I would also add Graeme that I personally feel you have nothing to be nervous about. Your writing continues to advance with each and every story you produce. The fact that you are writing many different stories contributes to this. I on the other hand am only working on one extremely large work... and that has it's own pluses and minuses. I have to keep within the same genre and remain faithful to the story all the way to the end. You on the other hand are playing with many different elements as you move from story to story so I say "well done sir."
I think that all of the author's insites who are working on this project will definately help other writers (myself included) not only in seeing this particular process of colaboration, but even regarding work done by solo authors.
Finally I would like to add that in light of some of the recent "negativity" that cropped up on the forums and Mike's initial decision to pull them from the site (presently reversed for now), THIS is the kind of thing that should be publically discussed - the craft.
There are lots of forums out there on other sites that pander to that kind of thing. I think that the forums on this site should be positive for writers. This isn't a nifty site with hundreds of authors and stories... and frankly I'm glad it's not. The only reason I decided to post here is that this is a smaller community of writers who seem for the most part interested in practicing, exhibiting and honing their craft in addition to taking constructive comments and criticism. (In other words CARING about each other).
Nasty comments, attacks, and negativity for the sake of negativity aren't very nice. I'd like to think we're a better community than that. If I really have a problem with someone on this site, I'll take it to them PRIVATELY. There is no reason to embarass someone or to make another look small in order to boost the attackers ego in a shabby attempt to advance their position.
Again thanks for considering my questions... I look forward to your eventual reply.
Regards
Jamie
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I guess I?ll address this to Jimmy since you are the Project Director, but any and all of your compatriots are also more then welcome to respond. And I?ll even start off on a bad foot by giving you the classic ?back handed? compliment.
I generally don?t like ?collaborative efforts? when it comes to stories. Even when it?s just two authors, I find that (unless they edit each other?s work and have a final editor smooth things out), I always have this feeling that it?s a bit "contrived" and not as integrated as I would like.
So far I have not seen this on Collision. The writing is extremely good, It is also smooth, each chapter (so far) has dove-tailed into the previous chapter very well, and I look forward to more chapters from the various contributors. (I have an innate suspicion that part of that smoothness is that you started out with some of your strongest authors (not to disparage any of the others please do NOT take my meaning incorrectly ? so you created a decent momentum from the start). Jimmy your work is always excellent and I have watched in happy amazement as Graeme?s writing only continues to grow in depth, meaning and stature.
BUT the real reason for this mail is to ask you to come clean and ?reveal? what?s behind this story ? especially since it seems to be a successful attempt at this difficult genre.
So far all we have are the chapters? without explanation. I personally would like more.
1. How did the project start? And who conceived it?
2. Who decided what chapters would be written by what authors?
3. How were the authors chosen, or did they simply volunteer? (and why wasn't I asked - hahaha JUST kidding on that one - honest!)
4. Is there a general plot line that was created that all the writers agreed with or is everyone writing by the seat of their pants, simply picking up where the last author left off.
5. How is it going so far? Are deadlines being met, are chapters flowing back and forth between writers, project director and editor.
6. Is each author waiting for the previous one to finish, or are the many authors all currently writing away?
7. How do you all feel about working with each other?
8. And what about the editor? How it going from that end? What does the editor think as he gets works written by different authors? Does it go well or is he putting in lots of work and effort to smooth things out?
Since this is a bit of an experimental project, I think it would be SUPER if you would pull back the curtain and let us know what?s happening: the mechanics, the emotion, the sweat? in effect ?the good the bad and the ugly.?
I?ll be completely honest with all of you when I say, had you discussed this project with me in advance I would have frowned, shook my head negatively and told you it didn?t have a snowball?s chance in hell. Well, so far you?ve all proved me wrong and I?ll step up like a man and admit I really like what I?ve seen so far. It?s one of those times that being shown the error of my ways is certainly not a negative for me, since it points positively to how a dedicated group of people CAN accomplish something meaningful.
I realize my questions probably entail writing an essay on the process, but I wouldn?t ask if I didn?t think it would help other writers ? either individually or if they also envision entering into a similar collaboration.
So folks? come clean. As the song from Grease goes, ?Tell me more, tell me more.?
Regards
Jamie
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No need for an apology Aaron, I understand how something can get misunderstood - especially on-line.
I've done the exact same thing myself. So no harm, no foul... and certainly NO bad feelings on my end.
BTW I enjoyed your first story very much... and will be very interested in any others you produce in the future.
May your friend's surgery be safe, successful and painless as possible... having just gone under the knife myself, I can relate...I hope that things go well!
warm regards
Jamie
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It always amazes me how some of these threads take on a life of their own. What started as a ?Hello? from ?Naiilo? has moved to a discussion of editors and editing! Oh well? anyway? allow me to respond as I sit here recuperating from abdominal surgery!!!
(No biggie just had my gallbladder removed on Monday ? so I?m a prisoner at home for a few days.)
I normally don?t like to speak for others, but I will make an exception here.
Knowing AJ as well as I do, I think I can say that I believe his remark was meant as a joke. Of course in the cyber universe words are often cold marks on a paper, and one doesn?t have the advantage of seeing the person?s face, hearing chuckle in their voice or the inflections they make. But I am fairly sure that what he said was very ?tongue-in-cheek,? and certainly not meant to offend anyone.
I refer back to my post ? ?5 May TSOI ? Update and Thanks? ? as background for my feelings about editing and editors. (But if you don?t want to head there, just read Blue?s comments on being an editor? they are correct!)
I for one can state that if anyone is NOT lazy it is AJ who contributes great amounts of time and effort on the material I send him (probably much more then I have a right to even ask). And I know his statement was not a real world reflection of his feelings. I respect ALL editors who are REAL editor?s not just proofreaders. It takes a great deal of time, effort AND intelligence to successfully edit other?s work. It does indeed take just as much talent and skill to be an editor as it is to be a writer.
It?s very much a symbiotic relationship ? we each need the other half of the equation. Sometimes we may disagree with each other ? even argue, but it is a necessary relationship. And one that can be quite productive when everything is working the way it?s meant to.
By the way I just finished Chapter 26 of TSOI. I was a bit worried that removal of my gallbladder would lessen my writing ability (I thought maybe my creative talent flowed in the bile my liver creates!) But thankfully no? I?m still the same old Jamie except now part of me sits on the shelf in a jar in some medical research lab! Oh to be whole again!
So cut my editor little slack and understand it was just a joke!
regards,
Jamie
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Outdated post. Removed
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Well, to catch up with all you guys... I'm back in Brussels sitting here looking out the window and down at the fish market (just a name they don't sell fish there anymore - it is now a street of upscale seafood restaurants)... the fountain at the end of the street is filled now that we're into the Spring/Summer season and it's bubbling away.
Rad,
I DID get your long and detailed mail (thanx by the way) and replied. Apparently you didn't get it... soooooo... I sent it again (to both mail addresses). So check again & hopefully you got it.
Blue,
Flies and al fresco dining... they just go hand in hand (along with gnats, lady bugs, and the occasional bee or wasp (OUCH!).
James,
I drink my share of tea, but I usually need an IV of coffee to get me going... it didn't take me long to get used to European coffee, strong, delicious and caffine laced.
AJ,
Agreed Starbucks is over priced and doesn't do that much for me! I'm more a fan of the smaller mom and pop shops. In Brussels, there are so many places to sit and have a nice beverage (alcoholic or non-alcoholic). The cafe culture of Europe is a great island of sanity in a sometimes mad world.
Jamie
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With the creation of the World Wide Web I think we?ve all heard or have made comments on how much smaller the world has become now that we can venture out into cyber space. Evidence of that is certainly here on the Awesome Dude site where so many of us come together and read each other?s work while at the same time getting a chance to actively interact with and meet new people globally.
I think the fact that that I can jump on the net and instantly talk to friends around the world is great and soooo cool, but what?s even better is having the chance to sit face to face with someone and have a true interaction in ?REAL.? Seeing the other person across the table from you, looking at their expression change as the conversation progresses and thoroughly enjoying the ?tennis match? as one idea or thought gets lobbed your way and you volley it back with a spin of your own ? no computer, web camera or real time media can compare with the real thing.
I recently had the chance to travel to the U.S. west coast. While I was there, I had the opportunity to spend some time with AD?s own ?rusticmonk86? ? Gabriel Duncan. Over lunch and later a coffee we got to know each other as the real people we are instead of just our cyber-selves.
Walking the streets of San Francisco?s Castro, sitting in a small caf? over lunch and then later having a coffee in one of the local coffee shops we discussed a variety of topics and talked about many things. (I think in our discussions we just might have solved at least 1/2 of the worlds problems ? now if everyone just LISTEN and AGREE with us ? right Gabe!)
After a sunny ? although cool and lightly breezy ? afternoon, I said goodbye with a smile on my face and went back to my hotel thinking that if Gabe is an example of what it means to be young and gay today, then the world has certainly progressed many steps forward.
The smart, funny, thoughtful and remarkably insightful young man I met gives me hope that there IS intelligent life out there. The fact that he is not only out, but also active in the community and trying to make a difference in the world, while at the same time advancing himself was heartwarming and inspiring. And the two autographed books of his poetry was a bonus. (I?m going to wait until he?s way famous and then auction them off to the highest bidder on e-bay!). Actually it was not only touching to receive them, but they will have a special place in my library.
Thanks for a great afternoon Gabe. And thanks for giving me hope that the future is going to be in some very good hands.
(Maybe one of these days I can return the favor and share a cappuccino on the terrace of one of my fav places in Brussels).
Jamie
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Hi TR,
If I can offer some encouragement, I'd like to.
Drama Club is my FAV story on this site... my absolute FAV!!!
I am DYING for more chapters. Angel is the kind of character we need more of... Gene... well I'd date him in a second!!!
I know it can be discouraging when there are no posts or mails... but PLEASE remember that doesn't mean people aren't reading and liking it!!!
Take a look back at all those chapters you have finished... that's a lot of good effort.
I went from Dec 20, 2004 to April 15, 2004 without one single post regarding TSOI, but in that time I've added at least 10 chapters. If no one EVER posts a thing about my work and I get no mail I will continue to write The Scrolls and other works. I love writing too much to stop. I know there are people reading my work they just forget to tell me sometimes.
Keep DC alive... it's a story that needs telling and is worth reading!!!
If you keep writing I promise I'll TRY and be better about giving you feedback on it!!!
Jamie
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I finally got to this story. (so much to read so little time)
Once again Cody as I have written to you in the past, you have a genuine talent - poetry or prose.
It looks at the past in a nostalgic way without being cloy. It also looks to the future with promise. It's obvious that it comes from inside of you - that's what makes all good writing genuine and true.
Keep tapping that source... it won't let you down.
Jamie
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If it is really your work, it is perfectly legal and proper to turn in for a grade.
This happens at university all the time. I'm constantly asked to read over a colleague's paper or some presentation they will hand in. I act as editor for them, not only proofreading and making gramatical corrections, but also offering comments, help with phrasing or suggesting a rewrite of a sentence or paragraph. (I do not change the theme, ideas, philosophy, conclusions etc of the paper - that is up to the person writing it).
I don't rewrite the paper for them, I only edit it. They get the benefit of a better paper to turn in and the person receiving it gets better work.
Now if I totally wrote the paper or worked on major parts of it and they tried to pass it off as their own work either with or without my blessing, then there would definately be a problem with that since it wouldn't be their original work anymore.
If Blue's edit accounts for the fact that 10% or more of it is now him instead of you, then he either needs credit as a contributor/editor or you need to not include his work in the story. But if he is helping you "polish" or improve your own thoughts and ideas, there's nothing wrong with handing such a completed work to your teacher.
AJ edits each chapter of TSOI 3X, he makes suggestions, asks questions and often offers speculation. He looks at grammar, spelling, and all the other things needed to make the story look and read good. But it's my work. Now if he was rewriting whole chapters or adding lots of new material then in all fairness he would have to be listed as a co-author. As it stands I am the author and he is the editor.
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The dreaded "Writer's Block" IS a serious thing, and certainly nothing to joke about - especially when you're a creative person and writing is one of the ways you expresses yourself in satisfying and fulfilling way.
It is not only not having any ideas to write about, but the ability to put those ideas into words (or poems).
It's no different then loosing one of your senses. It's a concept thats difficult for non-writers to understand, so I tell them to imagine themselves blind for a few days - often they get the idea.
Of course life altering events - like major surgery, can throw you off your game so it's not out of the norm.
Things like taking a break, starting a new project, an evening or two out with friends never hurts, but it really doesn't address the main problem.
My solution has always been to force myself to write - and sometimes that's not as easy as it sounds. Especially when staring at a blank computer screen seems about as much fun as having a finger amputated!
But I do force myself. Initially once for about 2.5 painfully long hours all I produced was total rubbish that wasn't even worth the dignity of flushing down the toilet. But after a while (at least for me) something usually clicks and I've managed to overcome the log jam.
The worst thing is sitting and thinking about it. The more you dwell on it the more intransient the problem can become.
It's a bit like climbing back on the horse that just threw you. Initially it's about as much fun as a root canal gone horribly wrong, but give it a try. And don't dispare at what you initially produce... don't immeditatly quit because it's total crap to you - you may just toggle the right switch and get things moving again.
U have LOTS of talent, don't forget that.
Jamie
Good luck
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Dear WBMS,
I'm really pleased that you decided to begin this thread.
It tackles an issue that I?ve often mused and thought about a lot. There are many ?formularies? out there when it comes to writing and not just gay literature. But it seems that with the growth of the internet, and the ability of anyone to post anything at any time, there is this great plethora of gay literature that all appears the same.
I do agree with you that so much of gay literature is written as just that ? ?gay? literature? no plot, no decent characters, no point? it?s just GAY!!! Worse yet are the gay stories that simply pander to sex.
I suspect that part of it has to do with what I guess is a rather large, still closeted worldwide gay/bi population. It seems to me that there remains a substantial number of closeted individuals in what we think of as the ?developed? world of North America, Europe, Australia etc., not to mention most third world countries or nations where certain religions are dominant (many of the Islamic countries immediately come to mind). So writing and reading gay stories is one of the few outlets some individuals have.
Closer to home, I often think of the married gay man, with a wife, house in the suburbs, 2 or more cars in the driveway, the mandatory 2.3 kids, a job he may not be crazy about, a mortgage to pay, a monthly collection of bills, his family obligations, and possible college tuition for the 2.3 kids thinking, ?how the hell did I get into this!?
He may not have any friends to ?come out to,? he certainly can?t tell his wife (although there are some exceptions to this ? but not many), he has to stay closeted at work because god forbid that anyone ?suspects,? so he goes to the one area where he can find solace, friendship, companionship, information etc. ? that magical digital world known as THE INTERNET. Sure he may have gone to a gay bar or two and maybe he occasionally has the furtive gay sexual encounter, but sadly this is a quick fix to something more substantial and real that he needs and desires ? even more then the sex.
So he goes to his computer when no one is in the house or closes the door to his home office or bedroom (worse yet he?s out in the open and every time someone comes in the room he has to change the screen to avoid being ?caught?), and he surfs the web. He enters gay chat rooms, he goes to the gay porno sites, he discovers sites like Nifty Archive etc. and this is the only place ? sitting by himself in his chair, his nose a foot or two from the screen where he can ?experience? what is means to be gay. No wonder we still have so much progress yet to make.
The stories that he reads (or writes) if he decides to write usually fall into the tried and true ?coming out? genre: 1. Boy is an average ?normal? guy, 2. Boy discovers he is gay, 3. Boy is horror struck and scared (or even much much worse, fosters an inner feeling of self-loathing), 4. Boy somehow, someway, gets outed (usually by weird chance, accident or stupid mistake). 5. Boy deals with the retribution of that fact. 6. Boy falls in love with another Boy who LOW AND BEHOLD just happens to also be gay!!! 7. More troubles and travails continue? 8. The author runs out of steam and the story never concludes? *sigh*
But sadly WBMS this circle goes on and on and I think it will continue for a long time.
I agree we need good gay fiction. I?ve been on this soap box for years ? mysteries, detective novels, historical novels, romances, science fiction/fantasy, horror etc. maybe with a gay character or even ?gay themed?, but without all the excess baggage (and at least somewhat well written).
How many of the current gay stories have you read knowing exactly where the author was heading? how many gay stories have you read where one of the characters has the famous ?single tear streaking down the side of his face.? (I for one never had or have a single solitary tear when I cry? when I do it?s TEARS!!! As in LOTS!!!) And how many gay stories have you read where (when it?s all said and done) there?s really nothing memorable that you can recall about the tale? all of the above is true for me.
All literature has its standard tracks? and they all occasionally generate substandard product. Bad horror stories, bad straight romances, bad science fiction are all out there, but it does seem that there is an ever blooming crop of gay literature that just stinks!!!
Yes, anyone can put anything on the web and at this point I think they have! (The guy selling his soul on E-bay proved that once and for all). But I think it?s up to us to voice our opinions about it and sites like this are part of that.
One reason I decided to post TSOI on Awesome Dude is that Dude has made every attempt to create a decent, enjoyable and interesting site. The authors here (and I?d also like to think the readers) are a little more sophisticated, thoughtful, and interesting).
I think part of this goes back to the big "brew-ha-ha" I watched with great interest and sometimes amusement that Mr. Gabe and Mr. Codey started when they simply said they were looking for some positive gay role models. Many of our current crop of gay youth don?t fall into the traditional view of queers (thankfully). They are often open, out, well spoken and some are even in your face? and they really want healthy, well-adjusted and positive role models to look up to. Is this so impossible, so bad, or so difficult to deliver to them? Some of them DESPERATELY need those positive roll models.
Part of that revolves around our history and our literature. We all deserve better then ?the single solitary tear.?
One of the things the membership and management of this site have discussed is the appalling issue of gay teen suicide. Well the more out, open and honest we are the more we will become accepted (abet grudgingly in some quarters). Will and Grace never did a damn thing in promoting a healthy view of homosexuality and QE for the SG only reinforces the idea that all gays have ?good taste,? and know the ?proper? paint to splash on the wall. Uhm, do we still all think all Asians are super smart, all Hispanics are only good for being migrant workers, Native Americans sit on their reservations drinking fire water, and all African Americans can sing and dance like they used to in the old Shirley Temple movies?
I think there is a successful way to present gay literature without it falling into the "same old, same old," but that requires thought, creativity and most of all serious effort.
Yeah WBMS, I agree gay literature still has a long way to go? and so do we!!!
Jamie
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Gabe?s points are well taken, and I am in agreement. Read what he says... it?s quite valid and relevant.
Some of what I am reading in this thread goes back to plot and how skillfully it?s developed (or not). Other factors involve character development, story timelines and the voice the story is written it ? and if that voice changes during the course of the piece.
There really is no need for a cast of characters listed in a story. Let them emerge and develop in the story NOT outside of it. If you really want to give the reader more insight into a character, their background, some event that has occurred in their ?past lives? or some little biographical sketch ? include it in the work? NOT as a stand alone outside the story. First of all that can be confusing for a reader (are you writing one story or two). Second it takes away from the original work.
These things added to a story will serve to help make it richer, deeper and fuller. Hanging a lot of little doo-dads and extraneous stuff on it just detracts from the main event.
As an author, if you need to keep the characters, locations, venues separate to avoid confusion that is all well and good, but it should be your own working private list ? something of a ?cheat sheet? for you. (Save the papers and someday you can sell them on e-bay when you become famous). But there is really no reason to share this with the reader.
Too often in life people make lists and then lists of the lists and finally lists of the lists of the lists? get the idea? When in reality they should have taken the first list and just went with it. Writing is one of those artistic pursuits where thinking is crucial, but over thinking can be disastrous.
If you as a writer are confused about your own work? well you can?t expect the reader to understand it any better then you do and no amount of ?side bar? comments are going to help the work.
If your works ever become ?classics? then let someone else be the one to make some of the extra bucks writing the ?annotated version? or the reference works listing the ?alternate histories? of the characters, the blueprints of the castles, schematics of the star drives, and a treatise on how the alien communication device really works.
Do what you do best and just WRITE!
Oh and as far as reader suggestions? They can write their own stories or alternate versions of yours if they don?t like what your doing? If you are not writing the story YOU want to write then lay that pencil down boys!
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I concur with AJ.
I loved this story. It was excellent! The unconventionality of it grabbed me and I thought it was a great read. The descriptiveness, the plot and the eventual outcome... all good stuff.
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6.00
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Yes Nick it's true, attitudes on homosexuality in Western Europe are different then they are in the USA. As someone who has a foot on both continents so to speak I always notice a difference when I'm in the US as far as attitudes regarding gays. Western Europe is much more secular, something I enjoy.
I guess the biggest issue and worry I have concerning Europe and religion is the increasing immigration issue and specifically the religious ideas that are flowing in because of it. The rise of Islam in Western Europe has been and will continue to be a growing political and cultural issue in Europe... but then I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.
And of course your quite right in pointing out that homophobia isn't only the pervue of religious institutions and their members. Since this thread was begin addressing religion and religious views vis vis homosexuality, I kinda have focused on that issue, but an unbeliever can be just as homophibic as a believer.
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This story is a nice counterbalance to What DO I SAY Even when the same author tries this type of thing it doesn't always work. But in this case two seperate authors have been able to create a very honest and believable point/counterpoint.
Writers (myself included) take heed. These stories are quite simple and to the point. They stand on their own without any "special" effects. How many times have we seen a fillm in the genre of Star Wars, Matrix or X-Men when maybe what we've seen has ended up not being that great of a story and the plot is poor or nonexistent. Yet one will usually say "well I didn't like the movie, but the special effects were cool." At least one doesn't feel totally cheated for the money they plunked down.
Stories like this fall more in the "Art Film" catagory. They HAVE to be good on their own. There's no big name star or director propping it up or a SFX team blowing up buildings to divert your attention from that fact that it rather stinks!
Just as I advised G in What DO I SAY? this story stands alone just as his does. Seperately they are great, together they create a synergy that is guite good. So I would ask both of you to resist expanding these into broader stories. They are both little gems that stand on their own.
In each case neither of you resorted to cheap thrills, easy sex, or stupid cliches... congradulations! I salute you and say well done.
regards,
Jamie
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I'm amazed at how much has been generated by this little topic... crazy what we focus on... some of the topics posted on this forum are so thought provoking... but here I am posting once again here...
Anyone reading my stuff (especially with I dash it off like I'm doing now will find so many errors and stuff... I do EVERYTHING wrong... but the words flow, I pound them out... sometimes I go back and recheck... other times I don't... of course any professional work is always checked by somone... I can't EVER trust myself to catch all of my errors... some are so horribly glaring that I can't believe I've missed them when their pointed out to me...
There are multiple parts of the brain used for writing, the creative and the technical (think right/left) some of us are nicely balanced in that area, others lean more to one or the other... I had a friend who ALWAYS wrote technically PERFECT... there was never a comma, or colon out of place or used wrongly. Her spelling was flawless... she could recite (and often did) the most arcane rules of grammer to me as she would tell me for the 100th time that I should be remembering all of this... but the one thing she lacked was creativity, her stuff was BORING... no life, very flat, but technically correct. So when I read a story online if and find some errors and the story is good... I just keep on going. When I stop making mistakes myself, I'll start throwing rocks... but until then I'll keep my mouth shut since my glass house is just as vulnerable as anyone elses...
Having said that corrective criticism is and should be positive. And I'm not one bit against it... I welcome it actually... One shouldn't be offended by someone pointing out an error... if it's done in a polite way... again as a person with a serious LD I was ridiculed beyond belief as a child... teachers called me stupid... classmates laughed at my "funny"way of writing and reading... there were days I felt like a total freek... gee can any of us in the gay community relate to this??? I was even once paraded in front of a whole classroom by a smiling "well meaning" teacher who made me stand at her desk while she pointed out to the class ALL the mistakes I made and how to avoid them... let me tell U THAT was a real self-esteem builder!
Critics... keep commenting... we need U... (just be civilized), Editors be relentless... we want our work to be as technically "perfect" as possible... Authors, be open to corrective criticism and don't quit just because someone may be mean or thoughless and "bash" you a bit... Every popular commercial author can fill a scrapbook with negative clippings... but I don't think they cry to much when they cash their checks at the bank...
Now WBMS pull me to the front of the class and tell me how many errors I made in this post... (hehe... kiss... kiss). No hard feelings... writing is good for my soul and I'll continue to do it until I die... errors and all...
warmest regards...
Jamie
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I edit a national scholarly journal for my university (yeah go figure the dyslexic boy who screws up it... it's and its...)
Well, there is formating and then there is "formatting"... there is style and "style"
Authors take all kinds of liberities... the correct answer is that there really isn't any correct answer it all "depends."
First of all computers and desktop publishing completely changed some of the rules of formatting... in the good old days we put a double space at the end of periods... that is NO longer an accepted technique... the same with the old double space at a colon. And the -- double slash can now be eleminated... MS Word(gee do I have to put the little MS trademark here ???? hehe) for example will put in the correct "em" space on it's own (although I notice when I put them in they disappear in the actual posting when it gets changed over... but it's cool.
If your serious about formatting you can always purchase a one of the many books on it or check out some listings on the www... for US educational institutions and publications the APA Standards are applied... BUT writing something that gets posted on the web for enjoyment doesn't have to meet this standards... In in published novels I have seen many different styles... pick one and stick to it...
If one of my students hands me a paper that is NOT APA standards they will immediately get docked one letter grade... but if they write a story and ask me to read it... I'm not gonna hold them to the same standards... just like I'm doing in this post... I'm all over the board with style here. In fact I'm not even attempting to write in ANY style as I sip my scotch and look out my window late this next to last nite in Nov 2004 over the beautiful Xmas market being set up in the Center of Brussels... (sorry I had to rub it in)...
I guess the biggest thing is CONSISTANCY... if you are going to always write a #... like 2 miles than always use the # but if your going to write it out as in two miles... then just be consistant... Using a comma before and (one, two, and three or not one, two and three) is fine either way, but whatever you pick just use the whole way through...
But don't let the "rules" stop you from writing... that's what editors are for (right AJ... hehe). A good editor will whip your butt if you try to sneek something over on them... allow the creative process to guide the initial writing... then just have the good sense to go back and clean it up... OR consult a manual OR get someone who knows a bit about grammer, spelling, punc. etc to look it over...
Enough said
Regards
Jamie
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Nick et al.,
Yes, I?m familiar with the ad hominem argument and it?s not my intention to make one or even to attack or mock anyone?s individual religious beliefs, I just point out a few historical events and milestones as a point of reference. In many ways I feel that some atheists have created as much of a ?religion? as the traditional organized religions that exist, and I abhor that just as much as I do the other side of the coin.
Faith is a ?virtue? as the saying goes and I place that term in a much different category then any religious doctrine promulgated by a ?church? and it?s hierarchy especially one that feels they have the ?inside track? to salvation or communication with a specific deity.
I can?t deny your mention of the sins of Stalin and others of his ilk, but he was a totalitarian dictator not an atheist? as many dictators do, he created his very own religion where he was the reigning deity of his universe. He didn?t believe in the traditional god(s), but he sure believed in the god STALIN. I always get a bit nervous when a ruler or leader of a country starts putting pictures and statures of themselves throughout a country (especially when it becomes a decree, fiat, or requirement ? e.g. their picture in every classroom of every school, or their statue in every public square of every village, town or city).
I personally stared religion in the face many years ago and made a conscious decision concerning it regarding my own thoughts and beliefs. I don?t ask anyone to follow me in that decision, nor do I desire to send atheist ?missionaries? into the countryside to ?convert? the masses. Although I do have a specific set of points regarding religion I am personally concerned about some of which are:
1. I don?t think people should be converted to ANYTHING (religious or secular) at the point of a sword.
2. I think there should be TRUE freedom of religion? and that means ALL religions even the ones we may not agree with (as long as a religion isn?t violating natural law ? involving things like human sacrifice.
3. I think secularism can also be a religion and those espousing it have to be just as careful in promulgating their belief?s as formal organized religions should be.
But I guess the issue I am most concerned about as far as this forum goes centers around those homosexuals who sincerely believe in a deity, religion, or faith system and are oppressed or made to feel ?condemned? by the very system they so long to be a part of. Over the years I have met many gay individuals who wanted desperately to participate in the religion of their heritage and yet still follow their sexual orientation. Their pain, hurt and suffering was very real and I certainly do not discount it or mock it.
I may personally give a rat?s a** about religion, but I truly feel for any person who is exiled from something they want to belong to and be a part of ? especially when that belonging is critical to who they are. Yeah it?s easy for someone like me to say ?screw?um? regarding an organized religious group because I don?t care, but I?m not the person who is suffering because of the conflicts they feel in relation to the faith they are trying to practice and I truly sympathize with people who suffer no matter what the reason.
I wish all of you who struggle with this issue eventual peace and contentment. I?m not asking you to all become atheists. Unlike many on both sides of this debate I only want you in my camp if you TRULY come to believe as I do ON YOUR OWN after much though and inner reflection without a gun pointed to your head or through some kind of trickery or coercion. Its NOT my job to convince you? it?s up to you to come to your own conclusions. And I sincerely hope that you find the reconciliation, and acceptance you desire (no matter if it?s a personal reconciliation or one within an organized religion).
Oh and thanx for the nice comment on TSOI...
Regards,
Jamie
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