Codey

Atop A Wall a poem by Codey I once stood atop a wall then the falling, the shifting realities feeling lost, my world turned upside down seeking a safe port midst swirling storms a new world born at the death of the old alone in the chaos, I've nowhere to run wandering through clouding mists battling shifting shades seeking a new reality in an unreal world glimpsing fleeting flashes of hope grasping for those illusive flashes absorbing new loves and strengths I remember the life atop that wall the wall once a pathway to my future now an obstacle blocking me trapping me holding me in a bitter web of dreams surrounded by shards shattered pieces of my past through a crack I hear laughing children with glad voices I see playing children with smiling faces I feel the warmth of a new happiness denied me by unwanted memories Arms upraised stretching reaching seeking a niche a finger hold of stability a place of rest and rebuilding emotions rampant uncontrolled uncontrollable yet controlling fed by simmering rage hidden insidious threatening my tenuous finger hold Inching forward and upward rescaling the wall attempting to reclaim my rightful place frustrated at the pace angered at regressions and mis-steps but with progress, encouraged by love freely given and strengths gladly shared What awaits me atop the wall? What new world will I find? A mosaic? Formed with shards and pieces? What replaces the unsalvageable? A world no better but no worse? A world no happier but no less happy? What was the purpose? What was it all about?

I don't think there is such a thing as normal or abnormal in nature. Anything, and that includes homosexuality, that is a part of what nature or God made us is normal. There are majorities and minorites in nature and majorities always struggle to maintain their dominance while minorities struggle for acceptance. If, in our struggle for acceptance, we are seeking "normalcy" then we are concedeing to a false arguement, by the majority, that we are abnormal. I belong to several minorities and am struggling for acceptance in ALL of them. I will concede the point of minority but I will never concede abnormality on any of them.

what I meant was we have no control over where we go we're still dependent on adults to decide our futures. No kid should ever stay in an abusive situation because he felt he had nowhere else to go. Codey

Maybe reading all the posts in a thread before you start criticzing would help your depression.It's pretty obvious that you haven't been following the thread or reading the posts. You wrote; "No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking." The explanation was in one of the posts and I am really bothered by what you imply with your question. I have no problem with anyone in our gay community but I have a freaking big problem with pedophiles!!! You seem to be placeing the blame on me and Champ with out even knowing the story. I find this very disturbing to say the least. Is this an example of the tolerance you think I don't have or is it just a less polite way of saying what I'm begining to feel from some others? "Be quiet kid and let us adults worry about handling the straights....after all, look at the freaking great job we've been doing so far." Codey

ok.....call me stupid but I don't see anything there that refutes my ideas. According to him the only three things or needs as he calls them, that supercede sex are air, water and food in that order. To my mind, those three needs are all needs for self preservation. But even if you allowed each of those a seperate niche in the driving forces of life, sex would still be the fourth most important. His table of deficit needs all fall below the primary needs of food, water,air and sex. Are you trying to say that those deficit needs would over ride the primary needs. His theory states that if the primary needs aren't met, people may never have their deficit needs realized and will lead unhappy lives. How does that refute my argument that we must be comfortable with our sexuality and show others that our sexuality doesn't threaten them? Codey

I don't know how I did that...you guys figure it out. Codey

If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.

Sterotypes are real...other wise there would be no one to base them on. I don't believe Gabe or I condemned any segement of our community. If I did I also know I posted that I welcomed all faces of our sexuality. Our comments were about presenting the full face of our community to the straight world. It's the straight world that has problems with us, partly because of the incomplete picture of gays that they see or should I say, that we allow them to see? You're remarks about the gay club at your college I assume were directed at my post about the one where we were. These men were all between twenty and twenty five years old. Champ was 13 and I was 14 at the time. Their remarks and suggestive propositions were not appropriate and in the case of the one that squeezed Champs butt was plain illegal. I agree with you about role models but again we're getting hung up on definitions. A role model doesn't have to be a rainbow flag waving committed couple. A role model could be any one living his life successfully with out hiding behind a sheild of straightness. An example or two....the two room mates, doesn't matter if the're men or women, who give each other a good-by peck when they're getting into their cars to leave for work in the morning. The couple who've lived together for a while and are in a monogomous relationship could wear committment rings. When asked about them or the rings are brought up they could explain what the rings signify to them. A few instances like this and the word would be out in the neighborhood or among your friends. You don't have to be out to the whole world to make a difference by your example. Now to the touchy subject of sex and meeting some one. For a bunch of old guys with experience you sure seem to need help with this. LOL Ok....you meet some one at a party or elsewhere that you're interested in. What do you do? First you definetly don't just tell him you think he's hot and that you're gay. You need to be more subtle. Just introduce yourselve and talk about normal things. Somewhere in the convo the subject of dating or marriage will come up. If he says he has a girlfriend or mentions girls, it's a red flag, What he says though isn't as important as what you say. No matter what his answer is yours must be something along this line...No, I guess I just haven't met the right guy yet. His reaction will tell you the next step. If he if he leaves the conversation then he's probably someone you don't want to know anyway. If he said he had a girlfriend but sticks around to talk anyway then hands off. You may be driving away a potential good friend. If he doesn't have a girl friend and sticks around then the balls in his court and you have to let him take the lead. He still might be straight but gay friendly and would like to be a friend. If he's interested sexually then let him bring the subject back up....not you. He knows you're gay so you've done all you can until he decides to move forward. Blue has started another thread and I posted there but think it would fit into either thread so I'm going to cheat and post it in this one too....mainly because my fingers are tired from typing. lol As those of you who were following the 'questions' thread know, I said in my last post there that I was frustrated and was leaving the thread to take a breather. I felt like I was just banging my head against the wall to no avail. . Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me. Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help. No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it. The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war. What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change. All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to it. It appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown. Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us. Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area. Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex. You can call it reproduction of the species, if you want to play word games, but it still boils down to sex. People say, when criticizing us, that since we?re not able to reproduce then, we are performing a perverse act. That is pure BS!!! Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us? There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!! Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex? The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*). God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert. Ok....I hear you.....Codey?s gotten off thread again. Focus Codey...focus. The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results. We teens feel the risks are worth taking. Codey

As those of you who were following the 'questions' thread know, I said in my last post there that I was frustrated and was leaving the thread to take a breather. I felt like I was just banging my head against the wall to no avail. . Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me. Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help. No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it. The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war. What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change. All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to it. It appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown. Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us. Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area. Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex. You can call it reproduction of the species, if you want to play word games, but it still boils down to sex. People say, when criticizing us, that since we?re not able to reproduce then, we are performing a perverse act. That is pure BS!!! Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us? There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!! Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex? The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*). God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert. Ok....I hear you.....Codey?s gotten off thread again. Focus Codey...focus. The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results. We teens feel the risks are worth taking. Codey

I think you're right Ben. People can see the differences in race and even in some ethnicities. What you can see you can understand a little more. Our differences are on the inside and can't be seen. I think the hatred is based on the fear of the unknown. People can see black skin but they can't even imagine why we are like we are. What they can't see, they fear. What they fear, they grow to hate. We also can only feel our differences. When we look in a mirror we see a person just like everyone else. It's the knowledge we have of how we feel different inside that confuses us. We don't know why we're different and we fear that difference for basically the same reason that people fear us. Codey

Good job guys I think we successfully ended both story lines in a neat manner This was way fun!!!! Codey

Now a response to ele's thread.... Since prison life surely would stink, the lad knew he needed to think. It shouldn't be too tough if he thought hard enough, to find a way to get rid of that ink. He found a log to sit on and ponder. As he thought, he let his mind wander. If he didn't get this resolved, if it continued unsolved, then his life he was destined to squander. Beginning to feel quite depressed, there was one thing to which he'd attest. There was no one he knew, except good ole Ben Blue, who'd love a man with tattoos on his chest. Was this all his nefarious plan? One that I did not understand? Did good ole Ben Blue find fault with adeux to get his hands on a tattoo'd man? Codey

Seems our little storey has taken two seperate paths....first a response to Aj and one to ele this afternoon after school Two mirrors!! A plan oh so grand!!! But it turned out to go not as planned. He couldn't type unless he chose to type with his nose. You can't type with a mirror in each hand. This is way cool guys!!!!! Codey

He's right, the tatooist thought and applied the tatoo that the lad sought. But when it came time to choose which to,too,two he should use, the lad learned it had all been for naught. For when writing a post for the dude, he had to be very nearly nude. And try as he might, the words weren't in site. Without a mirror he was totally screwed. He thought as he slowly re dressed, I must venture forth on a quest. I must search high and low for a mirror to show, the words tatoo'd on my chest. He found a mirror in the room he searched first but when he used it his luck he loudly cursed. This cannot be, for the words that I see in the mirror are completely reversed. Codey

darn...me and those stinking to,too,twos....they're next on my list after I get rid of those 'y's. I even have trouble with them in french and I don't even speak french!!! Good thing I have such a good proofreader/editor!!! As someone would say, good on ya Ben! Codey

There once was a fellow called Blue. He had a secret nobody knew. And when he came out, it was a whimper not a shout, But he's still bidding his secret adeux. Codey

The message wasn't aimed at you Ben.....but thanks for catching it. Did you check out the pic on the id I sent you....we still think it would be perfect for you lol Champ says first you were Blue then things got a little better so you became Ben Blue....he's so sure things are going to get better yet for you so you should just be Ben now. Quite good progress....you wen't from being blue to been blue and so it's time to be just plain ol happy Ben ummm unless you'd rather be Benny. :D Codey

This thread is beginning to frustrate me. Maybe I should pull back for awhile and take a breather. We have the younger guys saying we need gay role models or examples. We have the older guys saying we don't need them because there are plenty of gays living "normal" lives. We just don't see them because of their normalcy. How can these gays living "normal" lives show us that we can too if we can't see them? What if a math teacher were to tell us to solve a problem and that there were plenty of examples for us to use but then said we can't see them because they're busy being normal examples and are blending in with the rest of the math world? How long would it take us to give up even trying to solve the problem? We all agree that one of the biggest obstacles we have to overcome is the misperception of us held by many straights. How are we going to convince them it is a misperception if we don't show them. We've tried telling them but unless they see it, they're never going to believe it. We have to face the fact that the solutions we've tried over and over have not worked. We need to be courageous enough to try other solutions and then more, if needed, until we find the one that works. We have younger guys coming out more and more these days and saying we need to see older guys also coming out so we can see we're not alone in the struggle. We have older guys saying people should only come out if they really feel strongly about it but they personally can't come out because their case is different. The adults see this as a justification for their inaction. We kids see it as an excuse so you can cover your own butts. Everyone's case is different but we have a common bond that should unite us but for some reason it doesn't. Let's talk about a bunch of those kids with different cases. Gay teen suicide. There, I just said the unmentionable words. How many of those kids would still be alive if they could have seen someone like them in the real world? How many would have not taken the pills or blown out their brains if they'd have seen hope in their futures? How many would not have felt so alone and abandoned if they knew the guys living up the street were more than room mates? How many would have not made the choice to end their lives if they had been shown options they never felt or knew they had? This, like coming out, is a problem we can't keep hiding from. I was told recently by an author that he wasn't interested in writing a story about a gay teens suicide attempt from the boys point of view. What was the reason given? You would think it would be because it was too heart wrenching but that wasn't it. The reason was he felt the subject was too "sensitive" and he didn't feel comfortable with it. That hadn't stopped him from writing about it from the view point of those around the boy tough. Believe me, and I do speak from personal experience, when you feel so abandoned or alone that you've decided there is only one way out, there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. The adults want to treat suicide but you can't. There's no magic pill. You can treat the causes of suicide but only if you talk about it and air those causes. The adults may want to hold their tongues about this "sensitive" subject but I'll let you in on a little secret. We kids do see the problem. We kids do talk about suicide. We kids are actively working to try to correct some of the causes of suicide. We kids are in this battle alone too. Anyone can quote statistics. Quoting statistics has never saved a life. We have younger guys saying you can't further our cause by staying hidden. We have older guys saying they are working to further the cause by pretending to be straight. This has never worked in the past so why cling to the hope that it will now? How do you know you're not doing more harm than good? David said in his post he was hurt because he thought his best friend was abandoning him, then when Trey and Eric came out to him, he was hurt again by realizing his best friend had kept this important part of who he was hidden from him. Neither of those two hurts would have happened if he would have known Trey was gay. He would have seen Trey and Eric's relationship as the same as between him and whatever girl he was dating. When you do decide to come out, if ever, How do you think the people you've been fooling all these years will take it? Will they say that what you were saying all those years was just you trying to glorify homosexuals because you are one or will they say that you were right all those years? My money goes on the former choice. I guess you could call me an activist but you don't have to attend demonstrations or parades to be an activist. You don't have to participate in sit ins or civil disobedience. All you have to do is be you. Not trying to blend into straight life by hiding a very important part of you, but blending into a normal life by not hiding. By showing pride in who you are and not letting others make you feel you have to hide to be a part of society. When asked why she refused to move to the rear of the bus and stand Rosa Parks said "I was tired." That's the point a lot of us are at in our lives. We're tired and need to make a stand. We're tired of knowing that not only the straight world views us as second class but that some in our community give the impression that they do too by their inactions in doing something to make it better for all of us. Codey

Yea.....It's the the name I was born with. I can't let the fact that I'm a 'y' person destroy my happieness though. We have no control over the things we are born with and sometimes they are things we can't change so we just have to learn to live with them and deal with them the best we can. We 'y' people realize we are different and will face a lot of hardships before we come into our own. It's this knowledge and hope for the change in peoples thinking that comforts us during the rough times. I used to use my middle name to hide the fact that I was a 'y' person but when the time was right I was able to assume my real name and admit that I was indeed one of "those" people. I may never learn to love being a 'y' person but I am learning to accept it and am becoming more comfortable with it everyday. Maybe there's a lesson in there that would apply to other parts of our lives. :) Codey

aha!!!! I found one of those 'y's....look out e or we'll have to learn a new spelling for 'insane'!!! And you doubters thought I was BS'g you. I will wait patiently for the apologies to come rolling in and will graciously accept them, then we can all join forces and defeat these evil 'y's. :D Codey ps; I liked that one a lot Passive

Graeme....I think you would have to admit that your case isn't typical. I talk to a lot of teens and they do feel sorry for themselves because they can't have what their peers have. It would be interesting if some of the closeted adults would truthfully share their feelings about themselves. Agreed that sexuality should not be the sole governing force in your life but tell that to a 35 year old man who has never had a partner of either sex. Ask himhow he feels when he is out eating alone and he's surrounded by couples. Ask him how he feels when the party's over and everyones paired up but him and he goes home alone. Even though our sexuality doesn't define us it greatly influences all the things that do define us. Before you married you probably dated women because you were unsure of your orientation so you were one of the couples. There are some of us that have no doubt about our orientation. I don't think it would be possible for me to have sex with a girl no matter how badly I wanted too. I don't know how long you've been married but at least six years since your oldest is five. You've always had someone to come home to...not just an empty apartment and maybe a cat. If you took whatever feelings that made you decide to come out and risk everything you have then multiply it by a thousand you might come close to the feelings lonely closeted gays live with daily. Yes I do include lesbians. Bi's and transgendered in our community. Codey

Sorry about that Thirdeye....I got you mixed up with someone in a thread on a different board. I stiil believe my points are valid about the gay friends of your brother. They could not have helped but to have been an influence on him...and on you. Once again I'll say that you don't have to wear your sexuality on your sleeve to be a good example. If you believe the 10% theory, then there are nearly 30,000,000 million gays in this country If only 10% percent of those were out and each affected the lives of only one person per year. Then 10% of those affected cameout and in turn affected one person each..and so on, it would in time affect a gret number of people who may never have been exposed to gayness and the gay community. You don't have to shout your orientation to the world but if you could make someones life better then it shouldn't hurt you to be out to some who you trust. Their accteptance of you might lead to letting one of their other friends or even a relative know that they don't have to live in fear and self denial. That they do have hope of a better life someday. I don't advocate any teen coming out. Some are outted by others and live miserable lives until they can escape. If an outted teen sees that there's someone like him out there and that person has survived and now has a better life then it can only be a plus for him. If they don't see an example of surviving and making it, it can only worsen his self image and may even lead to him becoming a statistic. If those in hiding consistently choose their own comfort level over the feelings and concerns of those who are in need, then we truely are not a community and not deserving of the acceptance we seek. That sounds harsh but that is what I believe. Codey Now it's back to studying to keep dad happy :) ps; being an example or role model isn't just for the gays struggling with their sexuality. It's equally as important that you are also an example to the straights around you so that they can see the lies and untruths they have been told about us. are, in themselves, lies and untruths

Blue...Ok daddy but it was to late this time. I promise to take your advise in the future....well most of the time maybe. Ok...here goes. Graeme it would be an honor to have my ideas influence one of your stories, but, in this, I'm afraid I've once again failed to make my point clear. I don't think the majority of us are promiscuous or bed hoppers. I was stating a point of view held by most in the straight community. I have no problem with any version of gayness that isn't hurting anyone else and is morally responsible. By this I mean having safe sex and not transmitting diseases to others. I have no problem with the diverse versions of gayness in our tribe. I realize that their version of gayness is as innate to them as mine is to me and is no less valid or more valid. My problem lies with, what seems to be, a "silent majority" (thank you President Nixon) among us, who, by hiding who they are, allow the straight world to classify and label all of us because of the examples they are shown. I cannot and will not condemn the people who are out in the open and living their lives the way that is natural to them. I offer my sincerest apologies to anyone who might have been hurt by my statements. I think all of us would agree that we have no choice in whether we're gay or not. We do have a choice in the way we handle our gayness. If we choose to stay hidden and feel sorry for ourselves and choose to not actively work to change things, then we give up the right to bitch and complain about how things are. If you choose to live and hide behind your fears and are miserable, remember this, you are living the life you chose. There are many risks in holding a mortgage, loss of your home because of accident, illness or layoff comes quickly to mind. Do you let these risks control your life or do face them and live with them? If financial lose and disruption are more important than being true to who you really are, then that's the choice you should make, but perhaps you should take a good hard look at the direction your life is headed and reevaluate your values and goals first though. Thirdeye....You say you don't see a need for gay role models or examples. I'm having a hard time reconciling this statement with your earlier post. In it you said that your brother, who had been homophobic according to another post you did, had two good gay friends. Don't you think that these two gays were responsible, in part, for the change in your brothers thinking? Don't you think that they were not only an example to a straight guy but also gave you the courage to face your fears and begin your coming out? It's people like these two that I'm talking about when I say example or role model. Don't you think, that by denying the need for examples like them, you could be condemning some kid to the misery that you lived from the time you were eleven? Wouldn't you have been happier, even though you were still closeted, to see that there was hope for you when you were older by seeing an example like them much earlier in your life? AJ....I hope I adequately addressed your concerns in my reply to Graeme. I do believe in a tribe or community, whatever you want to call it, and do want us all to advance together. To be honest, I hold great admiration for those, in what you call the "gay underclass", who have the courage to live their lives the way God made them. I don't consider them to be "underclass"....they are simply another face of gayness. I want my face of gayness to be represented too though. We all have to realize that the gay community is as diverse as the straight community and if we treat those in our tribe as if they are less than us, then we are committing the very sin we condemn the straights for committing in their treatment of us. Codey > Codey climbs off his soapbox and heads to the cafeteria for lunch< :) :) :) :) :)

Jeez.....Almost time for school and so much to say. I guess I'll Have to be doing on-line research if the teacher asks. l I'll work on my responses and try posting them at lunchtime. Codey

No Graeme....you're exactly the kind of role model we need. As I said before in this thread or another ( I can't remember much since my last birthday...I must be getting senile :) ), it's not important who you love but how you love.. You are a gay man who happens to love and be true to his wife and family. Despite what you've been going thru you are trying your best to maintain a stable homelife. That's what we need to see..not the bed hopping partner swapping hedonists. As far as you being out you are out to the people who matter the most to you and you do have to take into consideration the two boys. Not everyone can come out and I know that and so does Gabe. However most gays don't have the obligations you have and the impact on their lives would be much less. You are a great example proving we aren't all promiscious and can be faithful to who we love whether it be a woman or a man. Codey