"All these" and "All this"

[Neil]

Hello,

I would be interested to hear from the "grammarians" here on the correct usage of "All these" and "All this".

Thanks.

Cornelio

[Cole Parker]

I'm pretty sure I don't meet the qualification you proffered in your request, but since I'm not doing anything at the moment, we'll leave the matter of both who's your uncle and who's a grammarian aside and stumble ahead in an attempt to enlighten or amuse, whichever comes first, hoping that at least one will eventuate, and some light will possibly be shed on the question of the moment.

It's pretty straightforward that one would say 'all these' when referring to multiple entities and lumping them together somehow.

Soccer players, tiddlywinks practitioners and chess patzers: all these share a common goal, viz., to look good while getting the ball in the net, the disk in the cup, the king usurped.

Here, the things referred to by 'these' are plural, 'these' itself takes the plural, and everything is copacetic.

The problem comes with deciding what 'this' means, because, if we group our plural entities, we can make them singular, and so the singular 'this' then becomes appropriate.

She was a director's nightmare with her posturing, emoting and hogging the camera: this all, or all this if you must, resulted in multiple retakes, and eventually a new actress in the role.

Here, as plural activities were condensed into a singular group behavior, 'this' works as well or better than 'these'.

So what rule is to be followed? I'm not sure I can formulate one of less than 26 or so words, and who wants to try to muddle through something like that every time he want to scratch his 'this' or 'these'? Generally speaking, I think it's safe to say, if you can combine what the 'this' is referring to into a single element, then 'all this' works fine. If the group isn't as tidy as that and seems to fight being confined into a singular, then probably 'these' would work better.

Hope that helps, but it probably doesn't.

C

[Trab]

I'm certainly not a grammarian, however, to me it seems clear that "these" refers to objects, for instance trees in a park, and require a bit more clarification to correctly identify exactly what "these" are. "This" on the other hand, in the context of "All this" is more the concept of a whole, such at the park itself (in the example used earlier) or even the ambiance or the experience (happy family time). While maybe needing some explanation, the context of the placement within the story would probably suffice to be clear to the reader. If spoken, an expansive wave of the arm to encompass what is meant is probably the best for clarification.

I await correction by the true grammarians in this forum, although I'm sure my eyes will glaze over quickly.

[DesDownunder]

Cole Parker wrote:

I'm pretty sure I don't meet the qualification you proffered in your request, but since I'm not doing anything at the moment, we'll leave the matter of both who's your uncle and who's a grammarian aside and stumble ahead in an attempt to enlighten or amuse, whichever comes first, hoping that at least one will eventuate, and some light will possibly be shed on the question of the moment.

Geez Cole, that sort of preamble could get you elected to public office.

Heaven forgive me for even attempting to comment on matters grammatical, but I cannot resist the temptation which maybe why I will not get to Heaven.

If I did however, I am certain I would look at the angels and other heavenly creatures and say something along the lines of, "All these and Heaven too."

However while I sit with my boyfriends arm draped across my shoulder, looking at the sunset in a blaze of colors with gentle winds caressing the trees as birds fly over head twittering their welcome to the evening star, I might be saying out loud, "All this and Heaven too."

I must add that the one I find most annoying is when a shop assistant looks at my purchases and says something along the lines of, "Are these ones all you want?"

You can't have these ones. You can have this one or simply these (items), but these ones is not possible.

[Trab]

"Are these ones all you want?" Well, Des, there is always that except to the rule, even YOUR rule.

That poor hardware store clerk who is processing your 'on the wall' number purchases for your new address, 11111, has just been vilified unfairly.

[DesDownunder]

"Are these ones all you want?" Well, Des, there is always that except to the rule, even YOUR rule.

That poor hardware store clerk who is processing your 'on the wall' number purchases for your new address, 11111, has just been vilified unfairly.

ROFLMAO

Quite so Trab, quite so. Can I have a bag of these 1s please and a box full of them Roman Is too.

[Cole Parker]

Please note -- PLEASE NOTE! -- for once, I'm not the one leading this topic astray.

I feel so much better, being able to claim that.

C