A Christmas Wish by Hans Schreiber

[Lugnutz]

This one reminded me of another story, but this one takes a different turn. The first 3 chapters set up the fourth and final chapter. You'll feel what he feels in the end.

See for yourself.

http://iomfats.org/storyshelf/hosted/hans-schreiber/

[DesDownunder]

Even us tough old atheists can enjoy a wonderful story of love.

[Guest Dabeagle]

I had read this at the request of the author, for feedback, when we were originally discussing 'Val N Tyne' about a year and a half ago. My takeaway is that it was an interesting idea, but I'd have gone differently with it. I also didn't like the subsequent follow ups - I didn't like that it seemed a thinly veiled excuse for the two leads to screw - and I felt that there were several bits in those follow ups that didn't align with the original piece. Frankly the idea of a sick kid, as sick as he was made out to be, getting that horny and doing all those things seemed pretty fake to me. And his straight buddy just going along with it? And then, conveniently, he questions his sexuality in order to extend what was a short story?

My own effort has it's flaws, I'm sure, but I'm afraid I can't reccommend this one.

[DesDownunder]

Dabeagle, does it help to regard the story as a fantasy; perhaps written by a terminal cancer patient clinging to a wish fulfilment? That might not excuse the flaws you find in the story, but it could make the story acceptable.

[The Pecman]

Frankly the idea of a sick kid, as sick as he was made out to be, getting that horny and doing all those things seemed pretty fake to me. And his straight buddy just going along with it? And then, conveniently, he questions his sexuality in order to extend what was a short story?

Yeah, I agree 100% with you here. I think the idea is charming, but the reality is that anybody on chemo is very sick and barely has the energy to get out of bed, let alone have sex. And the other very real issue is that any (*ahem*) emissions from somebody undergoing cancer treatment are dangerous and are to be avoided. I wouldn't want to get near somebody who had cancer, at least in a sexual way. It'd be bad for both of us. A hug and a kiss are no problem.

But I think the sentiment and the intent of the story is admirable, and at least it tried to be positive and uplifting. I think it might've been more interesting if the straight kid actually did wind up having feelings for the gay cancer kid, maybe even realize that he's not quite 100% straight but more like only 80% straight. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Jeff Ellis]

SPOILER ALERT

I'm closer to Lug and Des. I'm inclined to cut him some slack. OK realistically it might only go so well in bed during a remission, but where does the author go then? Another three months or so before the natural emotional ending? No, I think he did fine on that, he needed to shorten the time line and having him die the following day made a better story even if all the palliative nursing specialists in here shout "unreal" in chorus.

So, I thought it was nicely handled and as a fantasy version of a sixteen year old's idea for Make a Wish I thought he did just fine.

I just hope that he wasn't working his way through some personal "I wish...". So let's be kind guys?

[DesDownunder]

Okay Jeff, so we are calling for a recognition of dramatic licence for the sake of emotional experience for characters and readers alike?

[Jeff Ellis]

Des, yes I think that's exactly what I am saying. Nearly everything we write has time compressed or stretched to fit the plot.

As dramatic license goes I think he stretched it a bit, but not to an extent that was unacceptable to me. I enjoyed it for the interaction between the characters and for the quandaries and their resolution. He asked some nice questions of how far a friend would go to make a wish happen and resolved them nicely without tear jerking...

I dont think that another round of chemo and a month in a hospice would have added much except medical reality.

[DesDownunder]

Des, yes I think that's exactly what I am saying. Nearly everything we write has time compressed or stretched to fit the plot.

As dramatic license goes I think he stretched it a bit, but not to an extent that was unacceptable to me. I enjoyed it for the interaction between the characters and for the quandaries and their resolution. He asked some nice questions of how far a friend would go to make a wish happen and resolved them nicely without tear jerking...

I dont think that another round of chemo and a month in a hospice would have added much except medical reality.

Even so, Jeff, the medical reality is that sudden death can be due to reasons other than one's primary illness.

I think it is perfectly pertinent to consider that, having achieved the experience he was after, his exhausted body stopped working. Additionally, some people just, give up when they consider the time is right for them.

More difficult to accept is the danger of the 'emissions', as Pecman refers to them. However, for the sake of the story, I can put that aside too. Speculatively, we might even make a case for the donated emission to have been a biological trigger (in addition to the emotional one) for Joey's depression.

However, deep discussion, of these points, becomes less than necessary in order to enjoy this story if we can but accept it on its own terms.

[Jeff Ellis]

Des, You are right, prolonging the illness to add verisimilitude is unnecessary. I am more than happy to accept that having achieved all that he had wanted from life the kid just gave up and shut down. That does strike me as entirely plausible. The human frame has a considerable ability to protect itself from suffering.

Those thoughts are perfectly reasonable, and your final point that none of them detract from ones ability to enjoy the story entirely accords with my own view that it was an "enjoyable" (wrong word?) story that was competently written and beautifully thought out.

I certainly would recommend it...

[Lugnutz]

This story is similar to Beagles "Jack in the green". It's the author's writing that we read. He brings you into his world. I don't pick it apart to find flaws or something I don't like or understand. If I did that, there would be nothing to read.

[Guest Dabeagle]

What I see here is that movable line that is the readers ability to suspend reality - and the point at which that breaks is different for everyone. I found it too unrealistic to believe - others are willing to accept it.

I don't think calling those things out is mean or rude, and had I seen this before posting, I would have made those points. The author doesn't even have to get into detail about a decline - even something like stating 'in the end it wasn't cancer...'.

If, to me - in my opinion - a story bills it self as real world; and by this I mean not magical, not set in space with lasers and aliens, not with wizards and demons - then I know what the rules are. If you break the rules, it breaks my ability to suspend reality to accept the story. For others that line is different - and I have no quarrel with that. But my objections stand.

[DesDownunder]

Interesting, Dabeagle. I agree the line is different and varies from person to person.

However, I feel the need to state that fiction doesn't necessarily have boundaries guarded by lasers or magic.

There are many novels that disturb the ether of reality with the thoughts of the author being conveyed in worlds that have all the appearance of being the same as any place we live, but only exist in our imagination. We find that the circumstances of those places and the characters who inhabit them have a wholly different experience of reality from our own. Strange customs, centuries old may seem fictionally unreal to us who are used to our own configurations of our observations and perceptions.

In literature, shortcuts may be taken, not so much to keep the story brief, as to keep the core message from becoming obscured by elaborate detail.

Sometimes the detail is the story, but also, sometimes the story doesn't need the detail or even strict adherence to a hypothesis of reality if the aim is to provide evidence of a truth beyond the action and setting of the work. The fiction may be subtle, unrealistic, ironic and even perversely inaccurate, be it all in the service of an entertaining discovery of a new way of contemplating reality.

Sometimes we can forgive the inaccuracies for the sake of the experience, but I'll admit sometimes we can't, and we can only agree that the point of departure varies for each of us.

[Cole Parker]

I think the less we stretch credulity when creating fiction, the more the readers can identify with what we're writing. The more they have to make allowances to stay in the story, the less likely they will innately accept what we put in front of them and will begin reading with a different mindset. So it comes down to what we're trying to accomplish.

Most sentimental stories need the reader to be involved. That's what sells the sentiments; that's what makes the reader feel what the characters are feeling. And I would guess that's what we are trying to do when we write that kind of story. It’s certainly what I’m trying to accomplish.

I liked what was said earlier about time lapses in stories. That's been a problem I've had since I began writing. I find it very difficult to construct a satisfying timeline for when things are happening in my work. Because of this, and becoming aware of timelines because of my own awkwardness with them, I've noticed how published authors handle the problem, and have been surprised to see that they often don't do it well either. Realistically, life doesn't move forward all that quickly. Dramatic writing, though, must, or we're left with mundane details that don't further a story, or secondary or tertiary plot lines that distract from the point being made, especially in a short story, or simply a time hole where we leave a set of incidents or our characters in August and then pick them up again next January.

One of many problems in my story is just this. Timelines. Things happen too rapidly, too close together. I try to do the best I can with it, but it's a tough one. If I didn't see eminent writers also struggle with it, it would vex me more. We can only do what we’re capable of, and keep trying to learn and observing how others handle the same problems we face.

C

[The Pecman]

I think the less we stretch credulity when creating fiction, the more the readers can identify with what we're writing. The more they have to make allowances to stay in the story, the less likely they will innately accept what we put in front of them and will begin reading with a different mindset. So it comes down to what we're trying to accomplish.

Man, what's with the typeface issues on this forum? You guys gotta settle down and just use control-+ (command-+ on the Mac) to make the screen type more visible on your browser without actually changing the fonts in your messages.

Back to the subject at hand: I agree 100% with Cole. I think not stretching credulity too far is the key. In this case, a couple of sentences could've solved the problem: say that the kid was in remission, he was no longer on chemo, and he was starting to grow hair back and feel normal. That works... then have the cancer return.

I've had a half-dozen people in my life who actually had cancer in real life, and even for the one or two who survived, it's not fun, simple, or pretty. The day-to-day struggles they have to deal with are unbelievably cruel.

One of many problems in my story is just this. Timelines. Things happen too rapidly, too close together. I try to do the best I can with it, but it's a tough one. If I didn't see eminent writers also struggle with it, it would vex me more. We can only do what we’re capable of, and keep trying to learn and observing how others handle the same problems we face.

Very true! I'm keenly aware of time in my own stories, and in addition to jotting down bullet points for chapters, I also write short paragraph-long bios of each character plus a timeline of exactly when and where everything happens. That way, if I say in Chapter 7, "remember when you shot that guy in Idaho on March 6th?", I can go back and confirm that yes, it was Thursday, March 6th that this happened. I'm not afraid of blurring the days so that I could say, "by the following week, he and I still weren't talking, and we avoided each other in the hallways." So as long as we're aware of the passing of time, and it's handled in a realistic way, I think it can work.

BTW, you just reminded me in my current story that the climax was in Halloween, not Thanksgiving, so now I have to go back and rewrite it! Got a little ahead of myself (ahem).

[colinian]

The problem I have with timelines is that in real life some things don't happen as fast as I need them to happen and other things happen faster than I need them to happen in a story. For example, I've written stories in which someone is arrested and there's a court case and they are sentenced. In real life (at least in California) it can take years between the arrest and the outcome of the trial. That means if I tried for reality in the timeline, instead of the arrest and trial happening while my protagonist is in high school (the way I wrote it in the story) the arrest might happen while he is in high school and the trial might happen five years or six years later, when my protagonist has gone on to college or even after he graduated from college. So I compress that timeline so there are a few weeks to a few months between the arrest and the trial. I've never had a reader complain about this, so I guess it's not important to be realistic. Of course, I might write a story someday where the long delay between arrest and trial is important. But so far I haven't written any like that.

Colin

I got home from my trip to Perth this morning.

I didn't go to work today.

By the time I got home I went to bed and woke up just in time for dinner.

BTW, what did you guys in California do to stop our rain and snow? Please turn it back on!

[Cole Parker]

Just the point I was making, Colin. Real life fucks up the time things happen for us authors. We have to work around it. Sometimes it's a lot easier than others.

Hope you had fun chasing the kangaroos (kangari?) and wombats. I understand wombats seek their prey with sonar. I think I have that right. And that you catch platapi using duck calls.

Anyway, glad to see you back safe, stateside.

Oh, and Pec? Sorry. I like the font, but it was too large to be very readable.

C

[colinian]

Oh, and Pec? Sorry. I like the font, but it was too large to be very readable.

C

The problem with a special font like the one you used is that if someone doesn't have that font intalled on their PC it defaults back to whatever is the default font in their browser.

Colin

[The Pecman]

The problem I have with timelines is that in real life some things don't happen as fast as I need them to happen and other things happen faster than I need them to happen in a story. For example, I've written stories in which someone is arrested and there's a court case and they are sentenced. In real life (at least in California) it can take years between the arrest and the outcome of the trial. That means if I tried for reality in the timeline, instead of the arrest and trial happening while my protagonist is in high school (the way I wrote it in the story) the arrest might happen while he is in high school and the trial might happen five years or six years later, when my protagonist has gone on to college or even after he graduated from college.

That's very true. It's a very common element with American cop shows (particularly Law & Order) that somehow, the criminal seems to go on trial less than a week after being arrested, and the reality is that it takes months to get to trial, and sometime even more months of delay caused by the appeals process. None of this works for drama.

But I think the reality of having sex with somebody dying of cancer and undergoing chemotheraphy is not the same as the reality of how quickly somebody can go on trial for a crime. Again, I suggested one possible fix for the former; just say he or she is not using chemo and is recovering from cancer at the time of the affair. That can work.

Oh, and Pec? Sorry. I like the font, but it was too large to be very readable.

I just use the plain, unadorned default format and it works fine for me. I have to blow up the webpage a size or two to make it readable for me, but that's the pitfalls of having a 24" high-res monitor.

[Guest Dabeagle]

The problem I have with timelines is that in real life some things don't happen as fast as I need them to happen and other things happen faster than I need them to happen in a story. For example, I've written stories in which someone is arrested and there's a court case and they are sentenced. In real life (at least in California) it can take years between the arrest and the outcome of the trial. That means if I tried for reality in the timeline, instead of the arrest and trial happening while my protagonist is in high school (the way I wrote it in the story) the arrest might happen while he is in high school and the trial might happen five years or six years later, when my protagonist has gone on to college or even after he graduated from college. So I compress that timeline so there are a few weeks to a few months between the arrest and the trial. I've never had a reader complain about this, so I guess it's not important to be realistic. Of course, I might write a story someday where the long delay between arrest and trial is important. But so far I haven't written any like that.

Colin

I got home from my trip to Perth this morning.

I didn't go to work today.

By the time I got home I went to bed and woke up just in time for dinner.

BTW, what did you guys in California do to stop our rain and snow? Please turn it back on!

I think what Colin expresses here, and reiterates the point, is that there is a line of what we will accept and what we won't. If the story was served better by the drawn out process, he could use that. But in the interests of telling the story he leaves that out. I can believe that the events occurred - the arrest, the arraignment, the trial - and the only thing I am being asked to believe is that the wheels of justice moved fast enough to be observed. I think because it keeps things in motion, I can accept it.

However, as Pec pointed out, the circumstances are different in terms of believability between compressing time to keep the story pertinent and doing things that, given the condition, don't even fall into the 'hard to imagine' category. I have to stress that I have no issue with someone else choosing to accept that if it makes them enjoy the story. For me, it's a bridge too far.

[Nick Deverill]

At the end of the cancer road, the patient is not usually still on chemotherapy as the attempt has been given up.

Various painkillers, usually opiates, cushion the end. Quite often the person is hanging onto life for a reason, and once that reason has passed the actual end can occur surprisingly quickly. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about someone who hung on for their wedding - and died within 48 hours.

Very sad process, no two cases are the same but I'm not criticising the timescale elements here, the poetic licence taken is not unreasonable in my book.

[The Pecman]

At the end of the cancer road, the patient is not usually still on chemotherapy as the attempt has been given up.

Put both those boys on Oxycontin, it'll be a whole different story.

My best friend's wife died of cancer, and it took her about 8 months of struggle to finally go. It was an awful experience for her and her family (and me, too). I think she's been dead for 10 years and I still get a little misty-eyed at her loss.

However, as Pec pointed out, the circumstances are different in terms of believability between compressing time to keep the story pertinent and doing things that, given the condition, don't even fall into the 'hard to imagine' category. I have to stress that I have no issue with someone else choosing to accept that if it makes them enjoy the story. For me, it's a bridge too far.

I'm a real whiner when it complains to lines of believability and keeping the story's internal logic intact. When it comes to something as basic as cancer, there's a thousand places to look for help on the web that'll give writers tons of background info on what the treatment and prognosis is.

I get real bent out of shape when I argue with people who say, "hey, this is just a fantasy, so no rules apply." I think rules do apply in all types of fiction, even fantasy, even comic books. (I have a raging debate elsewhere with people on why Cars is one of the worst movies ever made because it makes no sense, but that's another debate. I can buy into Snow White, I can buy into Pinocchio, but I don't buy a world populated entirely of automobiles, especially when all the buildings, stairways, and sidewalks are clearly made for humans. And there are no humans in the movie and no explanation as to where they went.)

[DesDownunder]

I understand that the cars are a transference of the human into the vehicles; an anthropomorphism as the representation of cars as having human traits. Even though I might go along with the representation, to a degree, I find the whole experience dehumanising, much as I do with digital actors.

On the other hand my cat definitely has human characteristics. Whether they are from a previous life, or not, is something I just don't know.

In case you're wondering, we just adopted a cat today. He's four years old, black and has an attitude from hell.

[Jeff Ellis]

My own feeling is a slightly different take on this discussion.

Some of the original criticisms were pretty negative. Personally I enjoyed it and I'm glad that I have got into the habit of only reading these pages after completing a story. If I had read those reviews first I might well have not read this story and that would have been a shame. As it was I read the story that the author wanted to write, and I'm glad of that. One with full medical detail for example I think I would have found harrowing and exploitative and wouldn't have come close to the enjoyment I got from this gentle romance.

So if Hans is out there reading what we say about his work... Well done Hans! I for one think you did well.

[DesDownunder]

That's two of us, Jeff. I enjoyed the story.