Europe: A Muslim Continent?

[DragonFire]

So, it has been determined that in about 25 years or so, the former nations of Europe will be Islamic Republics. They'll probably have the standard Islamic law about stoning gays to death. What do you think of that?

Myr posted this on GA, but what's your take on it?

Personally, it scares the crap out of me if these statistics are to be believed. Immigration has soared out of control both here in the UK and across Europe. Could this actually be a reality in 25 years?

[The Pecman]

I think this is racist bullsh!t. Maybe I have a higher opinion of humanity; I like to think that once people get exposed to freedom and a better life in a new country, they'll act in a reasonable way and will adapt to their new home.

I know people who are alarmed by the increasingly-Hispanic population of LA, where I live. To me, I just accept it as part of life. I know it's a cliche to say, "some of my best friends are blank," but literally, I have some fantastic friends who are of Mexican or Hispanic descent. My immediate boss is from Mexico, as are some co-workers at my day job, and they're great people. I only care how they are as people, not where they come from or what religion they believe in.

I'm more concerned by the number of stupid people in the world, rather than whether they're Islamic, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Atheists, or anything else. I just want people to be tolerant and leave me alone. But reading the paper, I do sometimes get concerned that the amount of literate people and people with common sense are diminishing.

[DesDownunder]

I implore you all to look beyond the seeming racism of the above link.

As an agnostic with atheist leanings, I ask you to look at this link of the somewhat staid British group called One Law for All.

The videos on this link reveal the Humanist's concern with these issues. The gay bloke is particularly erudite. See the Video link on the home page for more videos on the conference they held.

Others see a similar rise parallel to Hitler. I need hardly tell anyone of us what the attitude to gay people would be if even a small part of these issues should replace British Law or adjust the US 1st Amendment.

If you look beneath the surface at what has already been going on in Holland and the UK., it is possible to at least feel there is a concern worthy of paying close and continuous attention.

For those of you not frightened to be offended by atheist cynicism and yes, sarcasm, Pat Condell has made some very entertaining but irreligious videos, touching on these somewhat serious concerns. Pat is also defensive of gay rights, but you are warned that his approach has upset many people, earning him death threats from all quarters, which sort of makes me feel he might have some truth in his humour.

(He is a comedian, so he says.) PatCondell YouTube

Peaceful coexistence between all religions and beliefs (or lack of them) is under threat according to these links. Dragonfire is rightly concerned and that, as my links above report, gay rights and indeed human rights in general are indeed in danger, we should be more than a little concerned.

If you still doubt these dangers look at this link at the Humanist and Ethical Union to see the report on the deplorable changes that have now been made to the declaration of Human Rights as of March 28 2008. This report begins:

Vote on freedom of expression marks the end of Universal Human Rights

Submitted by admin on 30 March, 2008 - 09:32. UN GenevaFreedom of expression

For the past eleven years the organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), representing the 57 Islamic States, has been tightening its grip on the throat of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Yesterday, 28 March 2008, they finally killed it.

With the support of their allies including China, Russia and Cuba (none well-known for their defence of human rights) the Islamic States succeeded in forcing through an amendment to a resolution on Freedom of Expression that has turned the entire concept on its head. The UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Expression will now be required to report on the ?abuse? of this most cherished freedom by anyone who, for example, dares speak out against Sharia laws that require women to be stoned to death for adultery or young men to be hanged for being gay, or against the marriage of girls as young as nine, as in Iran. [...]

Admin's Note:

I am sure we do not want to turn these forums into a political-religious soap box. Yet we would be abnegating our responsibility to our freedom and liberty if we did not acknowledge these issues as being of concern. As Administrator of the Forms I would ask you all to keep further comments in this thread only, so that we may keep abreast of the situations whilst still maintaining the purposes of our Forums for our literary objectives and discussions. Thanks -Des.

[The Pecman]

I concede there are extremists on all sides. Whether they're Christian, Muslims, or anything else, forcing their beliefs on anybody else is beyond wrong -- it's insane.

Doesn't England have strict immigration laws? Do they just let anybody walk into the country and live? I seem to recall it's hard as hell to get a permit to get into Australia from some countries, especially if you plan to work there.

I'm assuming the immigrants are entering the country legally, as opposed to sneaking in.

Obviously, this is not a simple black/white issue. Still, my hope is that the world is fated to be a huge melting pot across all races and religions. You'd think that ultimately, we'll end up with a homogenous average. But if that means extremism and compromises on human rights, uh-uh. I'm again' it.

[DesDownunder]

Pecman, if I was anywhere else I would be trying to get into Australia, despite my love of American Liberty, European culture and my respect for Britain, simply because as yet, we are still able to select our immigrants.

I think there are huge problems with British immigration under the rules of the EU. but I will let someone who understands all that better than me to state the current situation.

Like you I hope for a World culture of freedom, peace and harmony, but the chance for that does seem to be receding.

[Madrigal]

brit18, I don't find that poem funny.

As much as you DON'T want to sound racist, I find a lot of conflict in your post. I'm not going to sit here and pin point everything that I find wrong with both of your posts; this is not, after all, a soap box.

This shouldn't be an 'oh my god i can't see a white face anywhere within three miles' problem. I think that if anybody should be concerned, it should be because of a sudden shift in moral values. The problem is not immigration, nor is a change in ethnic demographics; the problem is regulation. If you allow a large number of immigrants to, as you say, infiltrate your country, how do you expect them to assimilate?

And how is it possible that England has such an overwhelming inflow of illegal aliens when it is surrounded by sea? Is the regulation so poor that anyone slips through the enormous cracks of its immigration system?

You really shouldn't care about the country's face changing. What everybody should be concerned about is about progression. I'm sure nobody in England wants to regress into misogyny and sexual ambiguity.

Maddy (:

[JamesSavik]

I find it ironic that we don't want to sound racist so we refuse to stand our ground against an invasion of some of the most bigoted and intolerant religious fanatics on the planet. That makes sense in a real messed up sort of way- sort of like drinking the cult's Kool-aid.

[DesDownunder]

There is much concern about dangers to democracy from extremists.

The European Union parliamentary elections have reportedly suffered another decrease in elector turnout. The BBC news service also reports:

Centre-right parties have done well in elections to the European Parliament at the expense of the left.

Far-right and anti-immigration parties also made gains,

What this means in relation to endangering democracy is as yet undetermined. I suggest you look at the links already provided.

I originally considered this thread to be an opportunity to keep aware of the clear and present dangers to democracy, by posting reports of links to sites which can accommodate discussion and dispersion of information which we are not really designed to do.

brit18UK's attempt to lighten the atmosphere with the poem he found, and Madrigal's concern with it are examples of why we should not go too far in discussing the details of what is basically a fundamentalist, extremist assault on Western democracy.

It should also be realised that fundamentalists and extremists are not confined to any one race, religion or culture.

I am old enough to be aware that to ignore dangers to our freedom is to provide enemies with the means to take that freedom away from us. The rise to power of fundamentalist regimes in otherwise peaceful cultures is something that bears keeping watch. History teaches us that very clearly.

That is all this thread is required to do.

[Bruin Fisher]

The easiest response to immigration and related issues is antagonism, which can lead to more extreme forms of hatred. But imagine if there were no nations, with their boundaries. There would be no such thing as an 'african' or 'asian' or 'hispanic' or any of these other labels. There would just be people with differences - language, skin colour etc. So xenophobia might still happen but it might be persecution of people with red hair, or people with grey hair even.

The truth that is hard to swallow for any who feel 'invaded' or beleaguered is that people who were brought up in another part of the world than where they now live will have different ways of doing things and may choose to adopt the ways of their neighbours or may not. Some of those ways may be seen by the neighbours as inferior, some will certainly be superior - but the neighbours will not find it easy to see the value of those superior habits since they don't share them, and are unfamiliar with them.

Like Brit18uK I am a Brit, living in an area predominantly 'indigenous'. However I have lived all over the world including in Islamic regions. It is NOT TRUE that the whole Islamic world is bent on world domination and forcing the west into repressive religious legal systems etc. The majority of the Islamic world is moderate, and remarkably tolerant (Egypt, Malaysia, Jordan, for example - all places I have experience of). Moslems in the West are in the main condemnatory of extremism, and certainly of terrorism. Those few, predominantly young male ill-educated hotheads who align themselves with the extremists and terrorists are radicalised in part by the feeling of disenfranchisement they experience in their adopted country, and they're not bright enough to see how counter-productive their actions are.

Unfortunately it doesn't take many such to give the whole immigrant population a bad name. If the indigenous population could accept that everyone has a right to their home and to be accepted where they live, and make a sincere effort to understand their new neighbours, a great step forward might be taken.

Responding to a couple of points directly, Britain has relatively liberal immigration laws and the difficulty of policing the borders results in a significant illegal immigrant population. There are complex reasons why the areas of the country where a lot of immigrants have settled are run-down and dilapidated, not all of which are in any way the fault of the residents. Certainly there are immigrants who defraud the benefits system and the tax system - but the indigenous population are much better at it. There are also lots of immigrants and others who are scrupulously honest and try to contribute to the community in a positive way. Asian immigrants come from a culture with a great work ethic and the community in general benefits from their hard work. Corner shops everywhere open long hours, staffed overwhelmingly by Asians.

[Bruin Fisher]

I NEVER contribute to contentious, politicial, threads.

Now I've come over all faint, and will have to go and lie down in a darkened room until I feel better...

[Madrigal]

Quote; "I'm sure nobody in England wants to regress into misogyny and sexual ambiguity".

This just shows how ill informed you must be. The people I am pointing out to you practice misogyney as a way of life. Women in their culture have no rights at all. If the shift takes place, as so many people fear it will, then I would advise you not to visit Europe without first covering your face if you are, as you seem, a woman. They stone women to death. They hang gay men. They murder people for the most trivial offences. They routinely cut off body parts for petty theft.

Quote; "how do you expect them to assimilate?"

I wonder if you mean intigrate? If this is the case then they actually refuse to intigrate and insist on living, for the most part, in their own not so little enclaves. It is a problem that is so rife with cliff edge dilemma's that we, the indiginous people, almost feel alien in our own country.

Quote; "This shouldn't be an 'oh my god i can't see a white face anywhere within three miles' problem".

If you've ever been to Heathrow you ought to be able to see the analagy I was trying to make. If not then it is, as and of itself, akin to a not so small town and to actually see the place filled with these people is a little disconcerting to say the very least. This after realising their ulterior motive is in fact to turn our western democracies into dark ages style republics where women particularly along with most minority groups have no rights at all and often go in fear for their very lives.

I rather think that James's comment is braver than mine as he has actually said it as it, in fact, is. Des's very poignant warnings should be taken ultra seriously, too. Remember that their ultimate goal is, without doubt, world domination with a very repressed and ultra right wing religious way of life. I suppose that due to these observations and realising that I don't in fact like these people I should admit to harbouring racist tendencies for which most right thinking individuals would forgive me.

Lastly, bring to mind the hateful and disgusting diatribe spouted by the Christian right wing in your own country who are semi-gagged by a seperate and supposedly non-religious political system. To actually envisage what it will eventually be like if these people succeed think of a system that has a rather more right wing and alien religious view actually in control politically, too. If you can do that then you now have some idea of the type of future I and many others fear.

It's funny how you point out things in my post that are obviously correct (assimilation is an ACTUAL term used for the cultural integration of immigrants) and omit chunks in sentences with an obvious goal of denigrating my opinion (i.e omitting the preface to the assimilation question). Oh and you also called me a woman. You got my post completely wrong. The fact that you are blinded by what is obviously a condescension to immigration is very saddening.

I hope that, from what I'm about to say, you learn a little about what being an immigrant is actually like.

I am an immigrant. I KNOW what it is like to be considered an invader. I have been in classes and forums where I have been pointed to and criticized for beliefs and practices which I myself don't adhere to... which by the way, whether you meant it or not, is exactly what you're doing.

Some people assume my family consists of individuals that live on welfare, that we have a stash of food stamps on our back yard, and more than once I've seen new neighbors peek into our back yard or jokingly accuse us of being illegal (sort of like that sorry excuse of a poem you posted).

I've assimilated.

Brit18, my problem with your posts isn't that you're fearful for the future of your country. What I find highly bigoted is that you're fixating on aspects of racial distinction and that you seem to be profiling an entire ethnia, rather than focusing your critique on values that in truth can be concealed beneath any skin color or nationality (sadly sometimes irregardless of religion).

I'm not looking for a feud with anyone; I thought I'd made that pretty clear in my first post. I find it highly ignorant for anyone to post their opinion and close themselves to others'. Nobody's personal experience is more valuable than yours, theirs, or mine. I will even accept that the 'sexual ambiguity' comment was short-lived and I truly believe it is inaccurate.

This is my last post in this topic, and i understand if it is edited or removed.

Maddy (:

[Paul Schroder]

The majority of the Islamic world is moderate, and remarkably tolerant (Egypt, Malaysia, Jordan, for example - all places I have experience of).

Examples of the treatment of gays in:

Egypt - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc...+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Malaysia - http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/accept-ho...ity-in-malaysia

Jordan - http://alidahmash.blogspot.com/2008/10/hom...-in-jordan.html

And these are the 'moderate' Islamic states. As a gay male I am very concerned about the proliferation of a culture that denigrates women and gays. I try very hard to treat all individuals and cultures with respect since, as a gay man, I want that respect returned to me. Yet am I expected to remain silent (politically correct) about an issue that concerns me?

I've read about some areas in the UK allowing the adoption of some forms of Sharia Law - yet I'm not supposed to be concerned or voice my concern? I feel as though I'm trapped in a middle ground. I am afraid to voice my fears or I may be labeled a racist.

[Graeme]

Paul, I'm not going to defend the problems you've linked to, but I have to point out:

EGYPT -- Homosexuality was a criminal act in some parts of Australia and the USA as recently as twenty years ago. What is described in your link as happening recently in Egypt is recent history for both Australia and the USA. Happily, both of our countries have decriminalised homosexuality, and we can hope that the same will happen in Egypt, but it's a bit rich to condemn them harshly when we've only just passed the same point ourselves.

MALAYSIA -- Apart from the section that says Homosexuals are not recognized in Malaysia. LGBT rights do not exist. Possible punishments actually include caning and prison sentences up to 20 years., all of this petition applies to Australia and the USA. There are people in both of our countries -- people of influence, too -- that have described homosexuals as "shameless people" and homosexuality as a "sin worse than murder. It is a major sin,". We need to look at our own countries, too.

JORDAN -- In this particular case, I didn't see anything that didn't apply to Australia, the USA and the UK. Public sex is illegal in all of our countries, and prostitution is illegal in some, though many officials turn a blind eye to female prostitution. What's the difference? The situation described by this link is not exceptional or unique to the Islamic world.

All of our countries need improvement. Yes, we should aim to get homosexuality decriminalised in those countries where it is illegal, and especially work hard to get the death penalty removed for homosexual acts if we can't get it decriminalised. But our countries are only a few decades past that point ourselves. Now is not the time to raise a righteous finger and accuse others of things our countries have also been guilty of in recent history.

By all means speak out. Campaign, if that's your passion, to stop Sharia law from being imposed on our countries. But that's normal democracy -- speaking out against proposals we disagree with before they become law. We do it all the time, and often also after they become law if we feel they are unjust. Just be sure you argue on safe grounds and don't use arguments that appear intrinsically racist. Religious freedom does not mean you can impose your beliefs on others. You are free to believe what you want to believe, but trying to make others obey the rules of a religion because they feel it is right is not sufficient -- they also have to prove that it is right to those who do not follow their religion.

[Cole Parker]

All of our countries need improvement. But our countries are only a few decades past that point ourselves. Now is not the time to raise a righteous finger and accuse others of things our countries have also been guilty of in recent history.

Graeme, your sentiment is right on the money, but the shocking truth is, in the U.S., we aren't a few decades past that point. This is from Wikipedia:

Before that 2003 [supreme Court] ruling, 27 states, the District of Columbia and 4 territories had repealed their sodomy laws by legislative action, 9 states had had them overturned or invalidated by state court action, 4 states still had same-sex laws, and 10 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. military had laws applying to all regardless of gender. In 2005 Puerto Rico repealed the sodomy law and in 2006 Missouri legislatures decided to repeal the anti-homosexual "conduct" laws - leaving only three states yet to repeal anti-homosexual "conduct" laws: Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas.

Islamic countries have a long way to go. We do too.

C

[sumbloke]

Well, I'm an immigrant in most places: my grandparents immigrated to the UK and now I've emigrated to France (as it happens I was always a French citizen as well but that's irrelevant), but I'm not a Muslim and I have a white face (so when I'm at Heathrow I guess I dilute the brownness a bit). It is interesting - and essential - to compare the perceptions of immigration to the statistics. Research shows that people vastly overestimate the numbers of incomers to the UK each year and astonishingly believe - for example - that the UK is the destination of 25% of asylum seekers! (it's around 3% at the most conservative count). There are plenty of countries that admit more immigrants and asylum seekers than the UK and immigration is not always a net gain: more UK citizens emigrate to Spain that Spaniards come to the UK.

When the United Kingdom started to relinquish its colonies (but not its dominions alas) and the commonwealth was formed, citizens of commonwealth countries (at least some of them) were granted the right to British Citizenship. The people of the ex-colonies gave their lives in two world wars that had little to do with them; they came at Britain's call after the war to help rebuild our economy when we were in pretty dire straits. They arrived to a country where pubs and restaurants posted signs saying "No blacks, no Irish" and they took on the jobs that in a the post war boom that developed few native British people found attractive. My grandfather wasn't part of that migration but he arrived as a child and saw his father - a man who had owned land and had a university education - happily take an honest labouring job to support his family in their new home. Of course, many people distinguish these respectable immigrants from later waves and there may be some justification, but the response to social problems that are linked to immigration is never subtle: it's always a panic that eventually mentions white skin and a swamped culture.

Like many UK citizens, I've emigrated. I enjoy the privileges of my new home - heavily subsidized education and medical care; social services that work to alleviate absolute poverty; decent transport infrastructure (again subsidized) and a pension scheme that it's true sometimes strains the French economy. I pay taxes and I claim my entitlements in my new country as a right.

The social problems that are associated with immigration are not simply caused by feckless radicals who come to Europe and abuse our hospitatlity - they are the result also of a failure of European countries to live up to their ideals and to tolerate racism and foster segregated societies (witness the absurd asylum seeker dispersal programs that have had such disastrous effects). France has done no better. The majority of immigrants to the UK come to work and make lives for themselves and their families. In the case of Asylum seekers that is often made impossible: they are legally denied the right to work.

The problems that are faced are actually not so much with recent incomers (despte the grumbling about Poles and so on) but are associated with established communities form the ex-Commonwealth countries - most of whom are British second, third and fourth generation immigrants. If we don't ask how this has happened we are going to be in big trouble. Why do young Britons of Pakistani origin appear to reject the values of British society? Why do African and Afro-Carribean Britons seem to seeth with loathing for British institutions (let's face it, the Police some to mind)? We might not like the answer, but part of it at least is that we failed to make assimilation a reality just as much as the immigrants did: we tolerated discrimination and racism and as a community we still do far too much.

You can't build a wall around Europe and you can't send "them" home - this is their home. No amount of anger or hand wringing will do. We have to play our part and ensure that there is no justice to claims of discrimination or oppression if we want to confront hostility in immigrant communities. And, not just at home - Britain (and France) have a case to answer for their role in the situation in the countries of origins of immigrants and if we retreat into denial then we have no answer to the very hard questions that are put to us by young people of Pakistani or African or Chinese (for example) origin.

I find the idea of a white, English UK sad and frightening. It can only mean a world of closed borders and cultural isolation. The vision of white working class Britons conned by the British National Party into believing that xenophobia is the answer to our social problems (including an economic crisis that has nothing to do with immigrants and everything to do with the mismanagement of our economy) fills me with despair.

The way to combat the influence of mad mullahs and their terrorist disciples is to assert ever more strongly the equality of all British people before the law and the community of interests of everyone in our society. Any other response plays into the hands of ant-democratic extremists of whatever colour.

I'm obliged now to go away and look up the offical UK Border Agency statistics on immigration to the UK, I looked at them not long ago and I wasn't surprised but I suspect that many people will be. The scarifying over numbers of immigrants is on a par with the panic about banning "baa baa blacksheep". Disinformation that is always refuted but never dies away.

Jakob.

[JamesSavik]

Ok. One more time for those that don't get it:

Our repealed sodomy laws ARE NOT the moral Equal of THIS:

It's not even in the same ballpark.

The difference is living with people who only wish you were dead and people who will make it happen.

If you don't get it, I'm not sure anyone can explain it to you.