Tragic Rabbit
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i like this one too....you should write more poetry.
Codey
That's like telling someone to masturbate more, isn't it? I mean, that's sort of how it feels to write stuff like that. This one, I was watching a movie and the boy in the film asks for the number of a guy who doesn't plan on calling him, he's very young and its only his second sexual encounter and suddenly I acutely remembered that feeling, the feeling that it meant something else, something more than it did. I mean, after a while, you realize that everything isn't equal, that sow's ears don't make good purses, but that feeling...I felt like writing it down. I think the Icarus one is prettier, neater, nicer, the kind of thing other people like, I guess, but the Ten Things one or this one maybe hit closer to my own actual emotional intestines.
Anyhow, yeah, I've been writing some and the response has been underwhelming, to say the least. Maybe I do need to just think of them as masturbatory exercises and not expect any blue ribbons for my performances. Its a little depressing that the only thing anyone ever seems to like is Drama Club...though the Some Enchanted Evening has a few fans of its own, I think. Still, you sort of want something when you're done, like when the dentist gives you a lollipop after making you hurt. I've been spoiled in Life by all the candy given to me by nice men, I don't know how to judge things without it, I guess.
Kisses...
TR
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A Valentine In Time
For all the men
Who ever took my number
And never called-
A Valentine.
For those who cried out
Someone else?s name
Then paid for breakfast
To seem polite-
Eggs over easy, like me
And lightly toasted.
I never counted the days
When the phone didn?t ring
I never looked for you
In the faces
And places
Where we met that night.
That wasn?t me you saw
In the glass beside you
If you forgot, I never noticed-
It wasn?t me.
I was young but never foolish;
I always knew the lie
By the taste of your kisses,
I always knew the weight
Of your caresses
Was lighter than it seemed.
If I looked sad when you
Drove away-
Just a trick of the light
Your mistake, not mine.
A Valentine for you
Saccharine memory of something
Long forgotten
Cheap paper hearts
Wastebasket flowers.
I?m sure I knew your name once
But it faded
Like this Valentine
That I toss back through time
To you.
*
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[i have such a pretty page on Word for this with an interesting painting of Icarus...but here's the text all unlovely]
Requiem for Icarus
White as bone
and near as quiet
beached
couched in sodden sand.
Pallid skin
yellow hair matted
rats
and seaweed ribbons.
Fearful, cautious
a stick to poke
alive?
as dead as dreams.
The hollow bones
of broken wings
felled
into this shallow sea.
Such a face
too beautiful for heaven
still
you never know.
*
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Hi, Codey,
A nice, easy to read but thoughtful poem.
If you don't mind, I'd like to offer a little criticism:
1. The second last stanza has snapshot misspelt.
2. The meter, while close, isn't consistent, and this jar with me when I read it. In particular, three of the five last lines have seven syllables, one has six and one has five. The one with five really stood out -- it jarred me out of the rythm of the words.
Despite that -- a great poem! Just a little tightening up required.
Graeme
I'd like to offer a comment or three on poems and the poetic temperament. Some poems are meant to jar, that is, those not read from between the pages of a Hallmark card. And spelling, again, well...don't tell e.e. cumming that its enforced. I'm more of the school that believes that a poem is meant to elicit an effect, and that effect might be anything but soothing. I'm fond of making people laugh or cry but those are only two emotions possible from a poem.
Codey and I were just talking,comparing writing a poem to taking a healthy shit. Sometimes its just something that had to come out, with effort. Now and then, someone else likes it. What IS true, is that the effect it has on others isn't necessarily pretty...or expected. Sort of creates a big blot of feeling with tendrils back into your psyche to memories or our cultural Id. Meter isn't always what's obvious and, as a poetic requirement, is a tad out of fashion.
One thing that's certian is that a poet likes his poems poked at about as much as he likes his cat kicked.
Love and kisses...
TR
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Maybe reading all the posts in a thread before you start criticzing would help your depression.It's pretty obvious that you haven't been following the thread or reading the posts.
You wrote; "No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking."
The explanation was in one of the posts and I am really bothered by what you imply with your question. I have no problem with anyone in our gay community but I have a freaking big problem with pedophiles!!! You seem to be placeing the blame on me and Champ with out even knowing the story.
I find this very disturbing to say the least.
Is this an example of the tolerance you think I don't have or is it just a less polite way of saying what I'm begining to feel from some others? "Be quiet kid and let us adults worry about handling the straights....after all, look at the freaking great job we've been doing so far."
Codey
This is so...well, I'll omit the word I want to use in kindness, that I'm going to reply here and then delete all my posts later. Obviously, I never said that, I asked what an underage non-college student was doing on a college campus, a reasonable question from what I recall as nonstudents weren't allowed or encouraged to attend oncampus clubs. Whether that makes it your 'fault' is entirely your own invention, I'd certianly imagine that someone you met at a college function would assume you were older than you were. The main problem with your post is that it addresses a tiny comment in two long posts which were, again obviously, not addressed to you specifically and hence half my frustration with this forum and thread. I won't be back after deleting my posts. I don't know you and don't expect to but the world and this forum aren't about you. As to reading the thread, I specifically said I had and twice said that you seemed not to be reading my own posts. I'm over it, and will delete my posts later but wanted to comment here. I only visited the thread on someone's suggestion and found what I consider to be the ubiquitous problem of stereotypes and bigotry within 'the tribe'. This kind of throw-away reply post completely removes any interest I have in participating in this 'discussion' further.
Tragic Rabbit
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I'm hoping you confused my post with others or whatever but I'm depressed so I'm going to post this anyway. If your post was in response to mine, you didn't read mine, in my opinion. Still, I have a few comments.
Sterotypes are real...other wise there would be no one to base them on. I don't believe Gabe or I condemned any segement of our community. If I did I also know I posted that I welcomed all faces of our sexuality. Our comments were about presenting the full face of our community to the straight world. It's the straight world that has problems with us' date=' partly because of the incomplete picture of gays that they see or should I say, that we allow them to see?[/quote']Stereotypes are NOT real, they are mental inventions, drawings in the heads of bigots that define what such and such person is BECAUSE he is gay...or black or a Jew. The fact that some black people ARE lazy or good dancers does NOT make stereotypes real, it just means some black people are lazy or good dancers, and more aren't. The difference is important and bears on this thread. You are saying that oversexed effeminate gays with no manners are what YOU have experienced and that was what, at one point perhaps, YOU saw as what being gay was (that might have been another poster) and that's what str8 people see, that its why they hate us.[i disagree on that, too, but that's another discussion entirely] Saying and thinking this a stereotype and I reject the idea that a str8 [or gay] bigot will simply discard his stereotypes because he meets or sees on TV someone who doesn't meet his expectations. Dude, he can't SEE you, he can't SEE the person behind the blackness or the gayness or whatever and that's what a stereotype is FOR, to keep someone from SEEING the person behind the caricature.
That gay people have stereotypes about gay people and black people about black people is ALSO true but slightly different in that it is rooted in not only societal images and pressures but in SELF loathing. I DO expect a certian degree of prejudice from str8 people about my sexuality and I don't like it, but when I get it from OTHER queers, I'm far more deeply hurt. I do not like seeing it in this thread, any thread, any story or anything at all, frankly and am not going to change that opinion. I will point it out when I notice it even if it makes me look like a prig or someone who is terminally uncool. NO, saying 'fag' and 'gay' but not MEANING homosexuals does NOT make it okay to say, its still wrong and still bigotry. Etc, examples ad finitum.
Stereotypes are BAD and need to be pointed out each and every time NOT so that the unalterable bigot can learn, he can't, but so that other people watching, some of good conscience, can at least have an alternative view to the louder one. When queers get all pissy because the leather boys show up somewhere or because so-and-so is the one to speak for a group but he's SUCH a nellie...I am unhappy. I am unreasonably of the opinion that people should be kind to one another and strive to accept even what they can't understand.
When marginalized people marginalize others, it sucks. Big time. The amount of racism I encounter in the gay tribe is NOT fun, not funny and not trivial. There is a REASON most of the places you go, if you go to gay places, are all white. This is bad and something that we, as marginalized people, are in a position to CHANGE if nowhere else than in our own heads. If someone points out that something or other is a stereotype, they are telling you to love yourself and your neighbor better, NOT to see caricatures instead of human beings.
You're remarks about the gay club at your college I assume were directed at my post about the one where we were. These men were all between twenty and twenty five years old. Champ was 13 and I was 14 at the time. Their remarks and suggestive propositions were not appropriate and in the case of the one that squeezed Champs butt was plain illegal.No, not particularly, several people mentioned gay clubs in high school and college. Why were you at a college gay group as young teens? I mean, I have no idea, I'm just asking. However you point up the SERIOUS problem wiht what some of you seem to want, older gay men to be mentors and friends...hello, the risk of imprisonment is NOT a small one! Gays are scrutinized nowhere more intensely than when they are around underage people, teachers, scout masters, youth leaders are routinely fired for even the hint,the merest suggestion of impropriety. Hell, even holding your friend's kid on your lap can get you funny looks in our culture, its insane. I think a lot of adult queers would LOVE to do more than they do with youth but are terrified and RIGHTLY SO of prosecution. All it would take is one disgrunted, displaced parent or neighbor calling CPS and his or her ass is grass. So that's ONE thing. It sucks but that's the way it is. Now me, I'm too dumb to know when to be smart so yeah, I have taught, I have led youth groups, I have worked with teen clubs, I have teenage friends now, possibly more than your average adult, I'm not sure. If so, one reason is most definitely fear.
I agree with you about role models but again we're getting hung up on definitions. A role model doesn't have to be a rainbow flag waving committed couple. A role model could be any one living his life successfully with out hiding behind a sheild of straightness. An example or two....the two room mates, doesn't matter if the're men or women, who give each other a good-by peck when they're getting into their cars to leave for work in the morning. The couple who've lived together for a while and are in a monogomous relationship could wear committment rings. When asked about them or the rings are brought up they could explain what the rings signify to them. A few instances like this and the word would be out in the neighborhood or among your friends. You don't have to be out to the whole world to make a difference by your example.I'm not sure what your point is here, I know tons of guys and women like this, who do this stuff. Its even in the news sometimes but mostly is just everyday. I've done this stuff, these aren't the fifties. Adults are doing those things all around you.
Now to the touchy subject of sex and meeting some one. For a bunch of old guys with experience you sure seem to need help with this. LOLOk....you meet some one at a party or elsewhere that you're interested in. What do you do? First you definetly don't just tell him you think he's hot and that you're gay. You need to be more subtle. Just introduce yourselve and talk about normal things. Somewhere in the convo the subject of dating or marriage will come up. If he says he has a girlfriend or mentions girls, it's a red flag, What he says though isn't as important as what you say. No matter what his answer is yours must be something along this line...No, I guess I just haven't met the right guy yet. His reaction will tell you the next step. If he if he leaves the conversation then he's probably someone you don't want to know anyway. If he said he had a girlfriend but sticks around to talk anyway then hands off. You may be driving away a potential good friend. If he doesn't have a girl friend and sticks around then the balls in his court and you have to let him take the lead. He still might be straight but gay friendly and would like to be a friend. If he's interested sexually then let him bring the subject back up....not you. He knows you're gay so you've done all you can until he decides to move forward.
I so love the sarcasm of your post. What's wrong with going up to a guy and telling him he looks good? Hell, I know *I* like it. Listen, some guy I just met starts talking about not having met the right guy yet and you can color me gone. Way too needy, bit on the creepy side unless he seemed to be saying it with a sense of humor. If he has a gf and tells you, yep, I'd agree, don't grab his ass. I'm less sure about waiting for him to bring things up, why can't you? I mean, maybe you're shy but I don't think this is the best advice. What if both were waiting for the other to suggest a coffee (or marriage, to use your example)? Wouldn't hell freeze over first? I agree, going straight, if you'll pardon the expression, for sex is only a good idea in the right setting, a party or a bar, perhaps, and only then if you feel like it. Still, guys hook up everywhere and without so much talking. If that's not your thing, fine, but I don't see that either way is the only way to go about getting to know someone however well or for however long you want to know them. I'm a big fan of just asking stuff, like, do you wanna have a coffee? Do you wanna grab dinner tomorrow? Can I have your number? What are you doing later? Like I said, I'm too dumb to know when to be smart. I figure all they can do is say no, so what the hell.
Yes, we need role models/examples......but not me.
Yes , we need things to change for the better.....but don't expect my help.
No, I don't like the way my life is.....but don't expect me to change it.
Is this you or are you paraphrasing the thread posts? Have you read Joseph Heller?
The responses to Blue?s questions, in this thread, have given me an epiphany. ( I love that word and this is the first time I can remember having a chance to use it. lol) I said, in another post in ?questions?, that we teens were being forced to fight two wars but now I believe it?s all one war and we?re just fighting two battles in that war.'Epiphany' is an excellent word. 'We teens' who and where wars, in this forum? Btw, I had agreed with Gabe's posts and that was WHY I posted, because I didn't care for some of the replies. Bleh.
What is the one constant in a teen?s life? Change.No, LIFE is change, nonstop until you die. That's the one constant and I'm sorry to tell you that turning 18 or 21 won't make anything different. No one will hand you a manual on Life and change won't stop happening.
All we have known our whole lives, so far, is change. Our bodies have changed, our minds have changed. When we were five or six, we were ripped from our families and sent to school for seven or eight hours a day. When we were in middle school we had to adapt from the single teacher/single classroom to multiple teachers/multiple classrooms. Friends have come and friends have gone as we advanced through school and moved to different classes and people in those classes. Change is no stranger to us and we don?t fear it....in many cases we look forward to itIt appears, when people reach a certain stage in their lives, there is an attitudinal change and change becomes a personal enemy. In nearly everyone of my posts in that thread, I talked about letting fear rule our lives. I couldn?t define that fear but I feel I recognize it now. It?s the same fears that makes straights fear and hate us. The fears of change and the unknown.
I do not agree that teens are more susceptible to change or more hurt by it, I think we all experience it, that's what Life is, endless changes and then you die. NOTHING stays the same and I think most adults know that, if they don't, I'm pretty sure that's considered a neurosis, either way, its unrealistic. Same for teens who crave sameness, its just not going to happen. Adults may give you a false impression when they romanticize some time in their or their culture's past as better in some abstract way but that's nostalgia, not reality or real memories. In the 1980's, Ronald Reagan had a deep nostalgic craving for the 1950's and what he saw as gentler, saner times and plunged this country into the beginning of a conservative downspiral that hasn't stopped.
In REALITY, the 1950's in America were a time of oppression, inequity and deep cultural divides: segregation was in effect, women were paid a third of what men were and encouraged to be 'homemakers' by which they did NOT mean architects. And being openly or proudly gay? Read the Naked Civil Servant, there was a guy who was damn open and reviled every day of his life because of it. True story, btw. That Reagan view of the 1950's was nostalgia and all humans are guilty of it at some time or another. The key is to just enjoy the moment, whatever it brings, and I'm working on that in my personal life. The thing is, you can't point the finger at people over 18/21 and say they are the cause although I understand the sentiment. In the 1960's, they used to say, 'Don't trust anyone over 30'...but is that a good position from which to ask for solidarity amidst the tribe? Divisionism is a bad thing and whenever you feel the urge to draw lines, lie down and maybe the feeling will pass.
Along with those two fears we share with all human kind, there is one other that affects us teens tremendously. The single most powerful attribute assigned to all life forms is self preservation. Because of our total dependence on the adults around us, children and teens have none of the options available to adults. Who will take care of us if our world falls apart and we?re rejected by family or friends? We can?t leave an abusive situation because we have nowhere to go. We don?t have the resources and independence that adults have. We have to withdraw into ourselves and accept whatever the adults want to do to us or with us.Adults, on the other hand have options. Sure, these options may inflict great disruption, and change in their lives, but at least they do have the option of having control over their own safety. If you live in an area that causes you to fear for your physical safety, then why would you let a material thing like a house or job take precedence over physical safety? Has your self esteem been beaten down so far that you actually believe a house or a job is more important than your life? Put that house up for sale and start looking on the net for another job in a more gay friendly area.
You know, reading that I'm tempted to agree but I'm also tempted to say, sotto voce: Easy for you to say. The things that tie someone to one place can be complex and not necessarily related to fear. I've lived a lot of places and haven't yet found one that feels like home. Other guys stay in the same place for family, for friends, for a job, for their house, whatever, why is one reason better than another? Its so easy to be superior and say, Move, to someone else but what are you doing in YOUR life to make it better? I mean, that's the only yardstick that matters, the one arena in which you can clearly see the field. Maybe change or improvement doesn't mean moving although right this second, I'd give anything for a ticket out of this country, or at least this state. Should I just pack a bag and start walking? Its a thought, I guess...
Many have disagreed with my use of the term ?true nature?. They say their sexuality is such a small part of themselves that it shouldn?t be a defining characteristic. This is, in my opinion, plain wrong. In the characteristics that define life, the one that is second only to self preservation is sex.This is something I vacillate on, whether my sexuality IS myself or whether its only a small portion. One thing is true, to bigots, it IS me, the fact that I have sex with men wipes out all other things about me, neutralizes anything good I ever did, negates any positive character traits or accomplishments. Phi Beta Kappa or Faggot, which is uppermost in such a person's mind when they see me? I've the feeling that I know the answer. So I've embraced that but I do see the arguement that there is more to me, there IS. Its just that the bigots of the world will never SEE that until something changes in their minds, or in our world. Though I wish with all my oft-mended heart that it were different, this world sees little beyond the black of a black man and the gay of a gay man.
'True Nature', I dunno about that term myself. I've always known I wasn't str8 but the rest, well, I'd like to think I was something else besides just a guy who likes dicks. I do embrace, usually, what is refered to in the media as 'gay culture', I liked Judy Garland and high heels before I could talk and while gaydar may be a myth, a finely tuned sense of camp is something almost no gay men seem without. I never learned to be butch, Daddy couldn't throw a ball or change a tire to save his life, so maybe I just fell into that category more easily than some, maybe I wasn't kicking as hard. The thing is, whether you accept or reject 'gay culture', whatever the hell that is, you have to like YOURSELF and, one hopes, whoever it is that you are calling your tribe. In fact, why not like all tribes, why not just accept others, failings included, and shoot for something more like humanity as a culture? I guess I'm wandering again...
Reproduction is a part of sex but so is love. Do any of you believe that Pat Robinson, Jerry Fallwell, James Dobson or even Satan?s disciple Bob Phelps have only had sex to reproduce? Do they sit around in the evenings and decide that tonight?s the night to try to have a child, or do they just get horny like the rest of us?Gee whiz, did you have to go there? That's plain disgusting...
There is no such thing as ?normal sex?!!AMEN!
Different things turn on different people, does looking at a good looking girl make the straight men among us want to have a baby or to have sex?"God, look at her tits, I can't wait to take junior to kindergarten!"
The purpose of sex is not to have a baby, the purpose of sex is to have an orgasm, it?s the single most pleasurable experience a human can have. ( or so I?ve been told *blush*).The purpose of sex is to have an orgasm. Hmm. Well, yes and no. I get a lot of other things from most sex, even the most casual, but yeah, orgasm/release is sort of the driving force sometimes. Still, seems awfully reductionist to say that's all it is, except for masturbation. What about people who don't have orgasms ever? What if you don't have an orgasm sometime, does that mean it was purposeless? What if it made you happy?
God, or nature made the orgasm so desirable so people would have sex since pregnancy is a side effect of sex. If what we do is perverse , then by their own standards, everyone who has sex for pleasure, everyone who uses birth control (including the catholic churches so called natural methods) or anyone who has an abortion because they don?t want the bother of a pregnancy or the responsibility of a child, is a pervert.Well, that IS the position of the Church. Masturbation is also a sin, presumably because it wastes potential persons. Betcha didn't know all those wadded up kleenex could send you to hell.
The point I was trying to make is that we have a generational problem and instead of focusing on what we need to do to change the straight worlds view of us, we should first look into ourselves and find our own fears and decide if the reasons we allow those fears to control us are based on fear of change or fear for our safety. If they are based on fear for your safety, then you have options to control and overcome those fears. If based on fear of change or the unknown, there?s only one option. No one can make any guaranties about the outcome of change. You have to decide for yourself if the possible benefits are worth the risk of possible bad results.We teens feel the risks are worth taking.
Codey
Well, I agree with that, I don't think we CAN change the str8 world's image of us if we don't like ourselves. And it'll take time anyhow but things do change, as I've mentioned, and sometimes for the good. Black people, gay people, Jews, are somewhat less subject to bigotry in daily life than fifty years ago and perhaps things will continue to improve. In the here and now, though, what seems crucial to me is that we not take aim at one another and if there is to BE a tribe, that we act like it and stop sacrificing what we see as our expendable tribemembers. Teen/Adult, Black/White, BDSM/Vanilla, Nellie/Butch, class differences...can't we all just be friends? Or at least, accept each other. Its called TOLERANCE. It doesn't mean you approve, it doesn't mean you agree, it just means you acknowledge that they have the right to think or live or be whatever they want and that them doing so won't do you any harm.
You don't get superpowers when you hit 21, you can't fix everything, you're lucky if you can pay the bills and be reasonably content. Maybe we should all tend our own gardens? [Wasn't Voltaire cool?]
Peace.
Tragic Rabbit
Rules to live by-
1.Even if you and I don't agree, I respect you and we can coexist in peace.
2.Your way may not be my way, I will work to welcome your differences.
3.I will celebrate the diversity between us.
4.I will work through the changes life brings.
5.I will challenge narrow mindedness.
6.I will try to keep my relationships with others uncomplicated.
7.I will try to welcome different viewpoints and learn from them.
8.I realize that others can teach me something new about myself daily.
9.I know that the world is much bigger than you and me.
10.I know that the world is much more interesting with you and me in it.
-[Jewish] Anti-Defamation League
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My computer issues from Hell have not yet been resolved but I'm claiming them as my reason for chiming in so late. I've read the entire thread so forgive me if I get some ideas wrong or fail to attribute them correctly.
Overall random impressions:
I loved Gabe's posts, esp the nice long one later in the thread that was so eloquent and elegant. The Mail Crew are cool guys, I hope to meet them, at least online,sometime. Maybe they're allergic to rabbits. The married guys who love their wives and post, that's cool...sort of. I mean, its their lives but don't they have at least a little explaining to do to a younger gay guy who asks them Why? I mean, touchy seems a tad out of place. Guys closeted for decades, sure, I can understand and maybe I've done it here and there, I don't have a facial tattoo that says Queer but...maybe less defensive and more reality? Okay, there was no Internet but if you didn't know any other gay guys, dude, you were not looking is my opinion. And what's wrong with that guy on Are You Being Served? He's the most honorable character on that show, always nice to everyone and trustworthy as hell. He's NOT a bad role model. Random, I know this is all random and disorganized, sorry.
Not that writing and hosting and editing on these sites isn't something, I think it is. I think it IS providing some role models, both real and fictional. I can't tell you how many (I can't tell you how many because I've lost all my farking files) emails I've gotten that said that Angel or Gene or Bobby or Trey or someone in Drama Club was a role model, no kidding, despite their being fictional. That they helped someone in REAL LIFE do something scarey or just feel better in a situation. Gee whiz, Angel wouldn't fit the bill for some of the posters here, he's visibly gay and not ashamed to say it. Is he me? Not exactly but now and then in my life, maybe he was/is/whatever. I've also enjoyed meeting other author's fictional people: TLOT, The Boyfriend & sequels,For The Love of Pete, The Lifeguard, those stories caught my attention and made me WANT to write. More recently, other stories have introduced me to people that I either wish I knew or wish I could ask out
. Are they role models? Some of their authors are str8 or married to women, so its wrong to say that someone like that can't be a role model, at least in fiction. Someone in the thread said he wanted guys to NOT make the mistakes he did, to NOT marry str8 girls and risk them being miserable or committing suicide--now that's a definite stance, a role model of a reverse sort and not at all out of place, I'm thinking. Still, does it address what Gabe originally asked? I'm not so sure, I'm still thinking but I do know that what he wrote touched some things I think about more than a little. Aside: The constant references
to guys who are effeminate or not in (or seeking to be in) a 'commited relationship', guys who like rainbow stickers and parades just fine and guys who hit on other guys (eg. ask them out or otherwise show interest) has me the tiniest bit offended. I mean, get real. Guys show interest, they ask you out or touch you, what do you expect, monks? They're letting down the whole 'tribe' by being sexual? By being less than MarlboroManly? Gimme a break. Why do any of us have an obligation to be some kind of specific Log Cabin Republiqueer without whatever you see as flaws? Of course, that backs up the posters who say that they're just living their lives, and that's cool, I suppose. The thing is, it hurts me sometimes to read How To Live My Life from someone who lives with a woman and goes to PTA meetings...no offense. Its just that...well, that's a lot less helpful than some of the stories themselves.
Next thought.
Some guys ARE effeminate. My FATHER is effeminate, I'm told. Maybe its the imprint I expect in men, the behavior I first associated with being male. Isn't one of the problems here, the stereotypical expectations of men in the first place? Not only that you sleep with women but that you ACT and LOOK a certian way. When I was younger, I NEEDED to see men acting in different ways and I found my role models where I could. Some guys are effeminate when you meet them in bars or wherever, queer spaces, but aren't in the office. I know a pilot for American Airlines who's quite camp, though he'd not like me saying so, and totally closeted at work. Like no one else at American is gay...but its his life. He does a lot of volunteer work, is he a role model? Sometimes yes, is it a full time job? I don't know. I can understand why he lives the way he does but I wouldn't want to BE him, no matter how many times being a pilot got me laid.
And what's up with rainbows and stickers and that jazz? Sure, its stupid in a way but DAMN, why can't I sometimes be happy to be gay (more on that, below) and let someone else, who might also be gay, know that, better yet let someone str8 know that? YES, I have lost jobs, friends and family and had bad shit happen but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with ME, that means there's something wrong with the world and I wish it would change. Do I do anything toward that end? A little, now and then. I speak for groups, I volunteer for marches and crap, I hand out flyers on streetcorners, I volunteer my time and thought and, I suppose, my face and voice now and then a little bit. No big thing, I'm no activist exactly, but over time I might have made someone or two thinktwice and might have helped in a little bitty way some other person who is not str8.
It HURTS me that even in these forums, there's this assumption that we all have to be Model Fags or some HRC shit, that we have to be middleclass, white, manly, vanilla sexual beings and almost no one even notices that the assumption is THERE. Grrr! (If you don't think rabbits can be dangerous, you've not seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail).
When *I* was in high school (dramatic music swells, sounds of boredom and raspberries from the peanut gallery), the Gay-Straight Alliance was called the DRAMA CLUB (no sales pitch intended) and it helped keep me sane in an otherwise tedious black-and-white suburban world. Role Models? I found them where I could, closeted teachers I liked to think were queer, famous faces like Bowie and Boy George and other people who may not have said they were (or been) gay but were modeling a kind of Be Yourself thing that appealed to me, sexual openness and acceptance of whatever flavor. There was an actual Gay club in college and yes I went and yes I was scared to death...and met some friends from high school I hadn't seen in ages, it was pretty cool. No one acted fruity and no one had sex in the bathroom, it was just a club, a tad boring, so I never did a whole lot with it as I was more the party boy in those days. But it was there, which I appreciated.
Some of you saying you never met a happily married gay couple or whatever, maybe you need to get out more and I don't mean bars. Join a gay church or gay center, meet some regular people. Some are parents, some are couples, some are sluts, some are funny, some are ridiculous, some are leather and some are virgins. I mean...what's with all the stereotypes here of all places? What's with all the vitriol aimed at various segments of the tribe?
Contrary to popular belief, I'm not the nelliest jelly bean in the basket. Still, I don't make any effort whatsoever to be butcher than I am and maybe that's why I've had the negative shit that I have had, maybe its NOT why. I've done monogamy, but I'm not looking to do it again anytime soon. Why is it better? Why do I have to say I want that or that my fictional characters want that? Is that being a role model? If so, count me out. I like sex, sue me. Being in love is great but you lose sleep and worry a lot and then they skip out and steal the stereo so why is it the only thing I'm supposed to want? What's wrong with having friends and being casually sexual and going home to your cats? I love my cats. I'm only supposed to speak or hand out flyers if I have a ring on my finger? If I'm saving myself for Mr. Right? If I'm careful not to be too prissy?
A friend of mine, 40+ conserviqueer, finds me terribly entertaining but never, ever hestitates to insist that I help with whatever he's got going in the way of panels, speaking, flyers, rallies, discussion groups. I remember talking to him once, being more than a little annoyed that he thought he had to TELL me that my masculinity was not an affront to him, that my whatever, demeanor, was not preventing him from thinking I was an intelligent and useful spokesperson and that he liked me. I don't think he'd date me (I could be wrong) but...while I'm glad he appreciates me, I wonder why he had to make those statements to me, why he had to justify in his own mind including me in the political activities he organizes. I do see that he can see that role models don't come in only one flavor, I just wish he didn't have to work his mind around it to get to that acceptance. And this is our tribe? We must be cannibals...(no meat-eater jokes, please). Am I going to be voted off the Island for this post? Bit too preoccupied today to worry about so here it goes.
Ramble, ramble. Sorry, I'm trying to find my direction and have lost my compass. This thread is interesting but I'm not sure I like some of its presumptions. My mood is lousy today, forgive me if I sound mean.
Kisses...
TR
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I liked it. It brought a smile to my face. I think the sentiments are a bit over the top, but still quite enjoyable.
Graeme
Graeme,
I'm wondering why you thought it was over the top? Because you saw it as 'just' a poem about masturbation? The history I refer to is quite real, I meant what I wrote, though I also saw the humor of that particular approach to the subject. I can laugh and still be dead serious; I must be Irish.
Kisses...
TR
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This is linked on the front page New Poems section.
So I'm wondering if anyone liked this poem, its only my second one in many years [i did write a lot of poetry in HS but not since]. Did the photos add to the overall experience or were they distracting? Did you like the message of the poem at all? The style?
Kisses...
TR
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I need somebody to look at my story. I just took a long look at the first chapter in my story "A hero In the Hallways". just to fix it. I was wondering if somebody could take a look at it for me. If you think you can Please Let me know. Please email me or let me know here. Thanks Green
IM me and we can talk. I don't think I could put a huge amount of time into it but could possibly help jumpstart things. I don't mean to sound bitchy but the only serious editing I do is a reciprocal situation with another AD writer. Still, as I say, jumpstarting things is a definite maybe. <G>
Peace.
TR
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[Long string of expletives here.] I just need a hug. I've given life to a situation that's too terrible to imagine, and too real to run away from.
Help!
Big fat hug! Anytime, you know that. The story is great, don't worry, I'm still thinking that maybe we're helping ourselves and each other when we write painful things, whether they touch on our pasts or just on our past hurts in general. Maybe we purge ourselves, maybe the writing is a psychic enema and we'll love the results even if not always the process.
Kisses...hugs and whatever you need, RM.
TR
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Hey thirdeye--nice job! I remember well my first time in a club here in seattle...it was new year's eve at the Brass Connection. Had fun, did not go home with anyone, which was fine 'cause i wasn't ready for that anyway. It was incredibly freeing just being around all those other gay people for the first time in my life.
Congrats on a big step executed successfully!
cheers!
AJ
Yeah, that's something that anyone can relate to, the feeling you get when you're in a crowd of gay people, a very positive sort of feeling. You can also go to places that aren't bars, if that's not your thing or if you'd like to try other things, and get that same affirming sort of feeling. Gay churches, political groups or rallies, volunteering at your local GLBT center or joining local gay teams (bowling, softball, whatever). Sometimes its just amazingly good to be in a large group of gay people.
Good luck with your family, ThirdEye.
Kisses...
TR
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Loved it. Quite possibly my favorite of all of TR's writings. The mood and the language and the characters...everything just seemed to "click". One of the few stories to have me crying after reading it, rather than just during. I'll admit, I'm an easy touch when it comes to stories - pretty much anything'll set me off if it strikes the right chords - but this one really hit hard. Don't pass this one up, guys.
*blush* really? Geez...
But seriously, thanks, I did put a lot into this from an emotional standpoint and want the story, whenever I can get it proofed/edited to be as close to perfect as I can get it, as close as I can come to how it seemed in my head the other day. I also did check on some of the time-specific information used and, in one instance, deliberately used something that I knew to be innaccurate because I liked the effect.
I guess this qualifies as my first 'historical' fiction and I think I'm interested in doing more. I've always liked ghost stories, reading the occasional story in the gothic vein is a secret passion, seldom admitted to. I first encountered this style in a box of steamy gothic romances that my mum gave me as I teetered on the cusp of puberty. They were, evidently, something she'd gotten out of her system as a teen but they fascinated me! I'd never read such torrid romances and often with nothing more, if even, a single kiss exchanged! Thwarted passion, heartfelt longing, tragedy and pathos! Hardcore hetero, of course, which is, in part, where last week's idea of a brooding, romantic gay ghostie boy came from. A mouldering mansion, a melancholy love-lorne ghost...but with a difference-he likes boys. Anyhow...glad anyone liked it, and gladder still that I made someone cry. I was a bit teary when writing a couple bits myself, esp the end.
Evidently, its not clear at the end what the white rose on the doorstep is about? Yes? No? Just a little add on. I'm also wondering how Christian came across? Is he interesting? Likable? Understandable? Believable as a boy of his time? What about Ian? Thomas, was he believable or was his change around Christian too...something, too abrupt or unrealistic? Was the tone and style of the writing too heavy handed or did it fit the situation? It's formal but seemed to be what the tale called for...but definitely a first for me, writing that much purple into my prose. Felt a bit like some overblown 19th century novelist. But fun as hell!
What parts of SEE did anyone like best? Least?
I'm still waiting on proofing but should have a better version soonish. The idea just hit me late last week and its delayed the other projects a tad but not too much, the DC stuff due last weekend, for instance, and the other short stories sitting here in note form. For some reason, this one had to be written right away, something I prefer to do if I'm able. If I'm not, I make as detailed a batch of notes as I can and then set it aside. Right now, I have several really good ideas (so thinks I, in all modesty) but they haven't found their way to fruition yet, thus making me even more determined to write when the bug hits.
For them that asks, no, DC [A Kuo Christmas, DC19, a new spoof] ain't cancelled, just delayed.
Kisses...
TR
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I liked it so much that i contacted the author and volunteered to do some editing on it, in fact.
AJ
I'm wondering how that went over as a first contact fanmail? <snicker>
Kisses...
TR
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I loved the story, too. I found it on Nifty on my first visit to the Gay/Military section at the end of last week. When I mentioned it to Dude, he was, at that moment, reading and planning to post Being Gay Sucks, which is also good! Same author, Ruthless!
I like that D&V uses the conventions of many old stories, archteypal encounters with Death by mortals, and then adds a gay love twist. The setting is excellent, one that spoke to me and that I've read a lot about. I actually liked this, his first effort I'm told, even better than BGS which the author prefers. I thought it was very beautiful, very moving.
Kisses...
TR
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Thanks for the generous offers, guys. It's nice to know you're looking to increase my, uh, assets. ;) It seems I'm pleasantly average in that department.Naturally, no one is questioning the size of Tragic Rabbit's doubtlessly impressive assets.
Thanks for the compliment on the size of my vocabulary,Blue. I've always been told that I was above average in that department. 8)
The Dude himself created my avatar from original [reader] artwork. Criticize the Dude and die a slow death by sarcasm...
Kisses...
TR
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Hi Blue,
Once again thanx for the post. I haven?t gotten many posts or e-mails? so I?m not totally sure of the overall reaction to this story by both the members and general readership of the Awesome Dude site. Dude has been kind enough to make some nice comments in his weekly posts and indicates he is ?hooked,? but again when I originally started this little epic I never intended for it to see the light of day. I?m still rather chagrined at myself for posting it. I guess I?m calling it a ?personal experiment.?
I didn't realize that you hadn't had many comments so I'm posting mine. In fact, I just read it on the Dude's suggestion. I love the boys, the setting, the description, the storyline. Boys with wings, wonderful! I like all of them very much and look forward to reading more of their adventures. The wing descriptions are fantastic, very detailed, very lovely.
One thing (and no, I'm not a sex pervert, ask anyone<G>), if they are a 'mating pair', when do they mate? Do they have cycles of sexuality like the kemmer of the characters in Left Hand of Darkness? I mean, one or two chaste kisses seems a little harsh and not much to go on for the poor embattled boys. <wink> You don't have to DESCRIBE the sex to have it happen, For the Love of Pete has NO descriptions of sex but they HAVE sex. I'm teasing, a little bit, because I'm told you don't write sex, ever. But...'mating pair'? Do they go into a Vulcan type seven year rutting season, perhaps? <grin>
The story reminds me of a lot of adventure stories like Earthsea, Lord of the Rings, Left Hand of Darkness, some stuff by Alan Dean Foster and by Terry Brooks. Are you going on with this and, if yes, where are you going? Also, when did you begin this story? Why do you wish you hadn't put it online?
Kisses...
TR
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Well . . . Chapter Four is here, finally. I hope you all enjoy it. Chapter five is not that far away.
Thanks to TragicRabbit for editing. Thanks to Dude for dealing with the business of posting. Thanks everyone for reading this far.
--Gabe
You are a thousand times welcome, RM. [And thanks for the payback you did with my first xmas sketches.]
I like the story and the characters. What I like best, though, is your style of writing, the direct way of expression, the short and often powerful sentences. After sifting through my own overblown prose, its really refreshing. I never much liked Hemingway, never revered him the way so many English majors seemed to, but he wrote that way, powerful punches of sentences that stay in your mind.
I see you reworked the end of chapter one and the boyfriend's death. I think leaving it a little more vague adds verisimilitude and power to the narrative, we aren't quite sure what happened,just that it was bad.
Keep it going, RM!
Kisses...
TR
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Pictures? :roll: I sorta like the characters the way I imagine them, unless the author wants us to know his (or her) own idea of them.
Oh yeah, I'm with you there. In fact, I'vealways preferred physical descriptions to be somewhat vague, too. You know, set up the basic characteristics, but let the reader flesh them out the rest of the way.
I thought we were talking about readers asking for pix of authors, which they do and its so odd! Even odder are requests for webcam or phone contacts... do they expect the character to answer the phone?
I like having general descriptions, I don't always like stories where characters are described TOO much. One exception, in my mind, is TLOT which does do a lot of physical description but it works for me. I know I keep mine kind of vague...I mean, should you really know, or do you need to know if a character is 6'4"? Can't he just be 'tall' and only when someone perhaps has to look up at him? I rather like that the physical descriptions are vague in L&L, they are blurs in my mind but that's how I read, I still love them.
Chapter 8: I love Andrew becoming a moron! The movie theater is nice, sweet, and its sad that he's moving away. Sudden but that's how it happens when you live at home, my parents moved a LOT and I HATED leaving all my friends. Being the new kid sucks big time and all you can think about are your friends you left back wherever. Worse would be leaving a bf, I'm so glad that never happened to me!
Andrew is adorable, extremely lovable. Jill is one of the better female characters I've read online, I'm glad you wrote her.
What did you read growing up, EC? What do you read now?
I still admire you facility with language, your imagery and seeming ease with English. Lovely to read.
Kisses...
TR
Yahoo Messenger: guildenstern75180
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Well, it was good to see more from the Drama Club.
* Mike needs to listen to "If you love somebody, set them free," on Sting's The Dream of the Blue Turtles." (I really wasn't trying for a "blue" reference, haha.) -- My sympathies to both Angel and Gene at Mike's thoughtlessness. -- I had thought better of Mike before this chapter. I wonder what's up, if he's just going through a bad adjustment, or if it's something deeper. We'll see.
* Angel said a lot, simply by saying how, yes, he did know what it was like. Yes, Angel, I was listening, and yes, you're right.
Mike's very young and is still struggling with how he feels about being gay, being seen as gay, and, ah, alternate expressions of masculinity. Unlike Gene, he has definite ideas about how men and boys should act and isn't comfortable being seen with someone so obviously...queer. Yes, he'll probably either need to get over it or go back in the closet. I do think p18 is consistent with Mike's previous behavior...he IS a little on the selfish side. No one's perfect.
* Gene might be good for Bobby. Bobby's parents...ugh. But can Bobby be good for Gene, who also is hurting but is loathe to show it. I hope Bobby makes it out of the wilderness he's in.Funny, no one ever asks that! Can Bobby be good for anyone, as a boyfriend? Of course, what kind of relationship he'll have with Gene is still working itself out. What do you really think Gene's agenda is with Bobby, why is he hanging out with him? Remember, it was Angel (and Jaye) who asked for Gene's help with Bobby...
* Ryan actually seemed to have a moment or two of sanity and humanity. You keep adding nuance to his character, so he isn't just a cardboard bad guy. -- Would I date Ryan? He's somewhere between Pre-Cambrian slime-mold and troglodyte. That's about his date, I'd say. Or perhaps his date has expired like spoiled milk....I'm trying to make them all understandable even if they aren't likable...or their specific actions don't make us happy. To me, that's how people are. No one thinks they are a bad person, everyone has reasons for what they do, right? If I can make people like Ryan in some way, despite themselves, I'll feel like I accomplished something. Same with the rest, really.
* Not a lot from Matty, but his lines contributed. Glad he's there and hope to see more.Matty and the other debaters will be closer to center stage in Act II, the second book, but I do like him here. I hope I didn't bring him in so late that he doesn't fit in well. More on him in part 19.
I'm looking forward to more from the dramatis personae at the Drama Club, and best wishes for the GSA at Northside, fictional though it all may be.Well, I've sent in the first of some Christmas stories, more like character sketches, set in the DC world, outside the main storyline. Each centers on different characters. The first two feature Mike with Angel and then Bobby at home. I hope Bobby fans are happy! There'll be a lot more with him in the rest of DC, both books.
I hate that I seem to have lost a lot of readers with that long delay between chapters, I really do rely on their support. I'm very new at all of this and still looking for my muse, well, I'm looking for how to keep him happy at any rate.
I'm going to play around with the Christmas stories some, try out some new things with old characters. DC 19 should be done by the end of the weekend, latest, and I'm still hoping to finish DC, Act I by the end of the year. Other stories are in note form but haven't been finished yet.
Thanks for reading DC and, if you haven't already, please drop me a line to let me know what you think of it, what you like thus far or would like to see. I hope the Christmas stories are entertaining; I meant for them to be on the happy side, even Bobby's, so if they come off a little hokey, blame it on the Christmas Spirit!
Kisses....
TR
PS. I love my new avatar, its a drawing of Angel de la Torres by one of his fans!
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I feel for you' date=' getting emails from readers wanting more chapters, like, yestereday! I'm trying not to let that happen again with DC. [/quote']
What's especially funny about those demanding emails is the way they're usually from people who have never written in before, and who feel the need to type IN ALL CAPS WITH NO PUNCTUATION PLZ RITE MORE CHAPTERS NOW AND PUT IN MORE XXX THIS TIME DO U HAVE PICS KTHNXBYE! I love those things.
Haha, I'm SO glad that other people get asked for 'pix'. I'm rarely asked for more sex, I guess DC isn't the most prim story out there. That is, if you can get past the Shakespeare, I'm told.
So...got pix, elecivil?? *snicker*
Kisses...
TR
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The title, a plea for reader response? Maybe I should try that one...
I liked the story very much, grasshopper! Aaron's a cutie and the whole setup was nice and the stream-of-thought preface effective. It was a feel-good story with a happy ending and one I enjoyed. The comparisons between the straight siblings and their relationships and how the parents might perceive the gay son were well done and thoughtful.
'But my dad, you should have seen the look on his face when I said that at the table. If I'd said I ate baby bunnies for lunch, he couldn't have looked more sucker punched. Did he really think that I was any different from Ivy, from Scott? Why is it okay for them to date and have bfs and gfs, but not me?'
This type of commentary, the baby bunnies were funny and the plea effective, why should it be different for his boyfriends than his siblings? Great short story, I hope to see more from you here at Awesome Dude!
Kisses...
TR
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Thanks. I've already started on Chapter 8, so it shouldn't take nearly as long this time.
I feel for you, getting emails from readers wanting more chapters, like, yestereday! I'm trying not to let that happen again with DC.
I loved the new chapters, love the characters and your lovely facility with the language. Please keep writing!
Good luck with finals...
TR
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Loved chapter 18. Every scene with Ryan tends to drip suspense, especially the last one. He's just so...argh, I can't describe it, but I'm disgusted and intrigued at the same time. It's like he'd be my favorite character if I didn't hate him so much.
Everything's getting so tense...can't wait to see how this gets resolved.
Haha, cool! But would you date Ryan?? I've gotten a lot less response than I'm used to, either readers tired of waiting or they hate the chapter, I don't know. I won't let the last chapters have such a gap of time again, I promise. I am hoping to finish up Drama Club, Act I with the end of the year and along with a Christmas DC story.
Btw, I so love the new chapters of Leaves and Lunatics, you write so beautifully! I hate you! Just kidding...but you do have a fabulous dexterity with the language. The characters are so likable, too.
I guess DC will get more tense as it finishes, isn't that normal? How does everyone feel about Mike now? His actions in 18?
Does everyone still love Bobby or was he gone too long?
Kisses...
TR
Thanks for the generous offers, guys. It's nice to know you're looking to increase my, uh, assets. ;) It seems I'm pleasantly average in that department.Scan to donate
TEN FUN THINGS TO DO BEFORE YOU DIE
in Poets' Corner
Posted
Say, I didn't see this last week because its not in the Poetry closet, sorry. Many thanks and glad you liked it. Seems no one liked the Icarus one and here I thought it was the best one technically.
BTW, the correct version of the poem, Ten Fun Things, is at tragicrabbit.org, the one here on AD is a bit wonky.
I'm thinking there needs to be a name for a thing that's more like a story than a poem but damned if I know what that name is or should be. I might write some more now that my computer seems to be working (though I've lost every single file I had and all my story notes-sounds of piteous whining in the background).
This one made me sad and happy to write it so, by your yardstick (which I think might be a good one), I succeeded since you felt what I felt when I wrote it. I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
I'm behind on my prose, thought, so that should be the next stuff I send in.
Kisses...
TR