Absolutely unbelievable ignorance

[captainrick]

You know, there are some articles you have to read twice to see ... "Did he really say that????" :omg:

This is one of those times. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap_on_.../af_pope_africa

How do you fight such blind ignorance... None are so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so ignorant as those who refuse to learn.

Hugz for us all... we really need them

Rick

[DesDownunder]

Rick, I was like wise dumbfounded when I read the report 4 hours ago.

[Trab]

Sorry, but when a PERSON is elevated to such a position by religious conservatives you should not expect blinding brilliance, or even a modicum of peering out from the dark. I may be saddened, and disappointed, but I'm not surprised.

[Cole Parker]

The article made a very telling statement: that the Pope cares more about religious dogma than people. What a travesty, the leader of a supposedly Christian religion who doesn't really care about people. Isn't that an oxymoron?

C

[DesDownunder]

The article made a very telling statement: that the Pope cares more about religious dogma than people. What a travesty, the leader of a supposedly Christian religion who doesn't really care about people. Isn't that an oxymoron?

C

Isn't that insulting to the ox?

Criticism of the adherence of dogma is fair comment, especially where the health of so many are at risk from its effects.

I am also concerned at the infiltration of the dogma into African culture. I was kind of hoping that it would not be inflicted on indigenous peoples of other lands, any more; but the dogma of the Pope's church is not the only one with such an imposing missionary purpose.

[JamesSavik]

The sad part is that many people will believe him simply because he's the Pope.

NO- condoms alone will not solve AIDS. We don't know what will.

Condoms will help curb the spread of AIDS. That is especially important in Africa where whole regions have been de-populated and the countries don't have the public health infrastructure to handle a fraction of the caseloads that they have. I think that it's much more important to put out the fire than push a dusty old agenda that is NOT helping.

AIDS is an emergency in Africa, a serious human disaster- not a mere nuisance.

The Pope is being disengenious and that is unworthy his office.

[TracyMN]

I'm going to paste in an email from Rick Beck here, from a conversation this morning,

with his permission of course, that says what I'd say if my thinking was linear... the "them" in the

opening part is of course "us", as we were talking about writing and reading and how people think

Of course I'm mostly writing to the choir but I've got to say how important it is for them to create the world they want to live in. The time of sitting in the shadows and remaining silent on something so intimately woven into the fabric of our lives is done. There were enough straight folks irrate over the passage of prop 8, we can't let them stand up to be counted while the gay men sit back and hope someone comes to rescue them. We are the rescuers of our own fortunes. We must make a world where we are not only accepted but are respected for our creativity and productiveness. If we don't make an attempt to undo what the truely evil folks in the world are up to, we might be waiting to be picked up by the government one day. The right wingers are now preaching that homosexuality is the single most destructive force on earth. This is not an attempt to make nice. They've seen the reaction to their attemts to make a certain segments of the population as miserable as they can as their godly duties. These are not people who are ever going to live and let live Once they are done with the homosexual they will be working on co-habitation, and other smaller less vocal religions, and anyone in the government who doesn't dance to their tune, whether or not they believe it.

We are in the right place at the right time to put the forces of evil in their place and diminish their influence on government, and if we don't, heaven help us the next time they gain power. The plan of the repubs was to rule unopposed for 100 years. They were doing everything possible, legal and illegal, to diminish the political influence of progressive institutions. Only by a quirk of fate did they overplay their hand and end up being handed their heads. If you listen to the congressional conversation the republicans only say, 'No. No. No. No.' They have no plan, no direction, simply opposition that they hope will end eith them put back in power because Obama can't undo all their wicked policies they put into force to protect them and theirs.

.

And though the article is about condoms, and HIV/AIDS and Africa, we're talking about the the same forces at work in all of this.

For anyone to remain uninformed in the midst of this information revolution we call a world, in my opinion can only be the result of unwavering diligence in the pursuit of ignorance, but that doesn't make this Pope and those like him any less dangerous in their intent to deceive the public to reach their objectives. We treat other forms of cheating as varying degrees of criminality, and I find the principle of tolerance toward religious freedom sadly misplaced and the cost to us as a society more than we should be willing to pay. The most powerful thing

I can think of is our Collective Voice, if we can only come together and use it.

Tracy

[Richard Norway]

...For anyone to remain uninformed in the midst of this information revolution we call a world, in my opinion can only be the result of unwavering diligence in the pursuit of ignorance, but that doesn't make this Pope and those like him any less dangerous in their intent to deceive the public to reach their objectives. We treat other forms of cheating as varying degrees of criminality, and I find the principle of tolerance toward religious freedom sadly misplaced and the cost to us as a society more than we should be willing to pay. The most powerful thing

I can think of is our Collective Voice, if we can only come together and use it.

Tracy

Tracy, I couldn't agree with you more. Heath Haussaman is a political writer here in New Mexico, and Mike Huerta, a friend of mine wrote, a guest column piece for Haussaman's blog.

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=...Aklk&ref=nf

Please read, and then read the comments to the article...especially the one by 'David in 88012.' They're talking about Harvey Milk, but the message is loud and clear. We have GOT to come together and be "out." We have GOT to have our voices heard.

[Trab]

Good comments and good articles.

[DesDownunder]

Richard. it is not that I disagree with the sentiment or objective of gaining and sustaining acceptance of homosexuality, but that I am more inclined to liberate the human race from the bondage and influence of dogma in all the domains of its control.

I would agree with the Harvey Milk quote in the article, " the more of us they know, the more accepted we?ll become."

However, there are situations where to come out is not only a hardship for many individuals, but also is to invite the death penalty in some lands, and ostracism from family and friends that would make life unbearable for some people.

None of this means that I am unaware of the need to stand tall and proclaim our right to live without condemnation by government or religious dogma, but the truth is, in reality too many of us would be asked to sacrifice too much from such a proclamation.

Not everyone is in a position of personal or community safety, to come out, and though we might promote a call to come out of the closet, it is not right to do so without making the possible consequences clear. For every claim, that coming out and telling family and friends that someone is gay will serve the cause of liberation and equality, there must also be a declaration of the danger in doing that.

Make no mistake I would not surrender to an Inquisition, but I would look for a way to defeat it, to effectively dismantle it and to make sure that the ignorance that gave rise to such persecution was forever replaced with knowledge that their is nothing to fear from the sexual expression of love. (Indeed even leaders and prelates having a promiscuous life style (with each other? ) is preferable to the slightest skirmish on the battle fields of hatred.)

In any call to arms, the individual must not be conscripted against their will to dissent, or their conscientious objection.

Too many times in history, people have been forced into battle on the basis of the coercion, that if they are not for the cause, they must be against it.

For me it seems incongruous to force, coerce, or ask for self sacrifice in the name of a cause that seeks to allow people to love. Hating, in order to love just seems wrong. vengeance is the tool of our enemies, if we make it ours also, we lose the high moral ground of our right to liberty.

However, living quietly by example, even very loudly, quiet, will at times do more to gain acceptance within a community than direct violent confrontation.

Already the newer generations are showing not only tolerance but also ready acceptance of alternative lifestyles.

Older generations are coming to terms with it.

The real problems are with the fundamentalists in those totalitarian and authoritarian, religious and political dogmas, which seek to keep control over the individual's right to pursue their own personal happiness.

I know I've said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating, because whilst I will defend the cause, I will not condone violence as a method to achieve acceptance of love.

Many (of these) people suffer from homophobia directly linked to their own beliefs and fears. In many cases these fears are due to ignorance born of long term indoctrination so incumbent in conservative and fundamentalist conditioning.

Overcoming such conditioning and indoctrination will not be achieved by physical force. Violence is not an acceptable answer for people who really are only seeking the right to love.

In the words of a far greater man than I can ever hope to be, I will say we need a dream, a dream of a world where homophobia is a thing of the past because homosexuality is no longer seen as something to be feared or something believed to be in conflict with personal belief.

The rights of homosexual people everywhere to live and love without fear, is also the right of those who are heterosexual to live and love without being coerced into hating, fearing or not accepting the homosexual.

There are many places, countries, nations, where individual rights are sacrificed on the alter of cultural extremes and traditions. The battle is against those cultures, where they continue to teach and impose homophobia amongst other things, on their peoples.

Already in my lifetime, the once unthinkable acceptance of homosexuals has been written into law in many nations, in time others will follow.

Speaking out against the enslavement of people's minds and thoughts, is as much as part of the process of individual freedom, as is the liberty of the homosexual.

This is what is so exasperating, appalling and depressing about the reported homophobia (in Cornwall.)

We must never forget that liberating the homosexual to be accepted, also means liberating the heterosexual to be accepting.

[JamesSavik]

WWII VD prevention poster.

[Tanuki Racoon]

The article made a very telling statement: that the Pope cares more about religious dogma than people.

For those of you who didn't realize this until now, shame on you.

[TracyMN]

I do very much see this as a struggle for the fight to BE, as history has shown that while things

get better for one group of people or another, there is still always a group taking the hit, blamed

for this or that social ill, and the cause of whatever is perceived as the touble with things as they

presently are. So we get "cures" for what are only the symptoms, like aspirin for a fever. Yes, it is desireable to bring down body temperature because the fever itself is a problem, but it is also

the bodies way of signaling illness, and to stop looking for the source of the illness because we no longer have a fever is to court disaster down the road.

We see this half-measure, too-little-too-late in the media every day, and I find the "Homeland

Security" cherade to be as good an illustration as will ever get. Ignoring the ineptitude and arrogance that could have prevented at least part of 9/11, and what would, if addressed courageously and honestly, lead us to solutions that we could actually expect to provide a measure

of prevention of reoccurance, what we got was a dog and pony show of solutions to problems that

had little to do with any real threat and cost a bundle. I couldn't understand why the inconvenience

alone didn't create a riot, since the ability to know bullshit when we hear it isn't enough to get American's out of their chair.

Unless we as a society can come to a place where we see that wanting to decide what is "right" for

anyone beyond our own selves is in itself tyranny, we will never rise above the level of even the most ignorant contol freak who says " in my house, you do what I say". If we could go one day without starting a sentence with the word "You", and without using the would "should", we would be halfway to the goal of freedom for all. My desire to shed the layers of my own

indoctrination, not religious necessarily but not immune to that influence, or to the influence of growing up in a society where leverage is more sought after than intimacy, is kept alive only by

returning to it consciously and even then I often must remind myself why it is important to me, because the idea of freedom, for all the lip-service it receives, is one that unless it is qualified and

it's boundaries defined, is as likely to be met with resistance, or to be almost immediately dissmissed, as it is to find encouragement. I don't know about you folks, but in my world if I want

to stretch the limits of my own thinking in the way that only be done by bouncing things off the mind of others, I've got to come here. Imagine my appreciation, and my relief, and my gratitude to what those who had a hand in my arrival.

One last thing, and that is that though the ultimate goal may be global, or universal, there must be

a place to start, and I can see Prop. 8 as something that can bring together a good number of people

and a diversity that a less specific issue of gay rights has done previously. The movie "Milk" could

not have been more timely, seems almost amazingly so to me and that could have been planned or not, I wouldn't know, but I felt a momentum around Prop.8 that was encouraging, and a chance to bring the voices we spoke of Richard, OUT, and TOGETHER, in a way that could provide an outlet

for what has been eating some of us alive the past 8 years, and the diversity could provide a level of protection for those who want to be a part of change but not blow their own lives to smithereens.

A pet phrase of mine has been " American's couldn't organize themselves to save their life", which was amusing until I actually realized that some organized effort might be needed and needed now,

and came face to face with the fact that I did not know myself if there was any around and if there was how to find it and align myself to it. Product of environment, indeed.

I have a big mouth, there should be somewhere I can use it.

Tracy

[The Pecman]

WWII VD prevention poster.

They make condoms for ducks?

One hopes that Donald isn't Catholic.

[DesDownunder]

Quote Tracy:

I don't know about you folks, but in my world if I want

to stretch the limits of my own thinking in the way that only be done by bouncing things off the mind of others, I've got to come here.

aww Tracy that is so nice of you.

Your thoughts are well appreciated too.

A pet phrase of mine has been " American's couldn't organize themselves to save their life",

Similar to mine (in Aussie speak) referring to inept governances and upper management, "They couldn't sell private parts in a brothel." and "If these idiots were flying an aircraft it would crash every time, before it took off."

Seriously, Tracy, it is good to have you here.

Also In the interests of our literary aims, I cannot help but feel that these issues we are discussing would make a terrific backdrop to a (romantic) story, in the tradition perhaps of Casablanca, where Rick's Cafe would be a gay-tolerant bar, hounded by authority to close down, but with a friendly cop who helps a gay activist and his boyfriend to escape with help from Rick who has always loved the boyfriend, from the oppression of a fundamentalist group, intent on imposing their belief on the community. Variations on the plot are welcome, perhaps even advisable.

Other classic plots from war torn scenarios are also attractive, but I am sure our authors can find a way to write something original as well.

For light relief (?) Donald and Daffy Duck could be arguing over the last available condom, whilst Bugs Bunny dressed in drag, waits for the victor to tell him what is up... doc!