Thoughts on Other Writers

[Guest Dabeagle]

This will ramble, a touch, and with my own message board gone - may it rest in peace - I had some thoughts to share.

I consider myself a writer, but not an author. I think 'Author' implies profession, something you can live from. Mine, like most of yours, are free and we (or I) ask that the reader pay us with the coin of telling us their thoughts and impressions.

With the absolute ton upon ton of good stories here, I tend to stick with one author I like for a bit before randomly jumping. I bypass many of the comments in 'Readers Rule', except that I note to myself that I should read it, because I never know what will be revealed in the comments that might break a story's magic before being read. For instance, if I know it's sad I may not read it.

So, sometimes, I scroll through Nifty and look for something to pique my interest. I do go by title - and whoever said you can't judge a book by its cover was a moron. A great many useful things are on the cover - the author, of whom you may be a fan; a cover photo which may entice you (Gabriel by Marten Weber, I'm looking at you); even the title which may hint at the interior and things of interest. I tend to bypass unimaginative titles like 'John and John' or 'John's Story' or 'The Sexual Awakening of John and his Menagerie of Obnoxiously and Unrealistically Well Endowed High School Class'. Although, that last title is somewhat imaginative, I guess. Descriptive at the least.

So I read a new story with an interesting title. I won't share it here, because it isn't relevant. I found some elements to be great - non-cliche situations, lots of dramatic conflict were really high on the list. However, there were issues with getting the ideas of the writer to the page in a way that allowed it to flow - in other words, it needed refining. I have written feedback to several authors, and I always try to be constructively critical with a mind to pointing them in the direction of improvement - if I can be so egotistical - and remind them at the beginning and end that all comments are meant in that fashion. Sometimes we create and imbue ourselves into the work, and so criticism feels like a personal attack rather than a discussion on honing our storytelling. Equally true is the tone of the feedback - arrogance and biting commentary aren't constructive.

So I began a correspondence, and even tried my hand at a little beta read/pseudo edit of the first posted chapter - at request, I wasn't so presumptuous - and I made the fellow feel pretty badly. Naturally, I felt terrible, and the one comment that may have torpedoed this person was asked in honesty - even if I now realize it could have been taken very differently.

One thing I try to use is to speak dialogue aloud, since if it sounds silly aloud it frequently reads silly on the page. Makes for strange looks in my house. But I find, without it, some authors allow their language to get too formal and, in the case of people who learn proper English rather than as a native speaker, things like contractions - that get used in common language - disappear. And so I asked, due to that very fact, if English was his native language.

Don't laugh, I meant well. I advised him to join the boards here, to check out the guides and take criticism as a good thing - that he'd done something right - and to work at it. I hope that happens, and I do hope other lurkers who want to write will take advantage of the bullpen to float ideas and half formed stories for input. Who knows, your half baked idea might send someone else's imagination off into new territory as well?

[Cole Parker]

This will ramble, a touch, and with my own message board gone - may it rest in peace - I had some thoughts to share.

I consider myself a writer, but not an author. I think 'Author' implies profession, something you can live from. Mine, like most of yours, are free and we (or I) ask that the reader pay us with the coin of telling us their thoughts and impressions.

With the absolute ton upon ton of good stories here, I tend to stick with one author I like for a bit before randomly jumping. I bypass many of the comments in 'Readers Rule', except that I note to myself that I should read it, because I never know what will be revealed in the comments that might break a story's magic before being read. For instance, if I know it's sad I may not read it.

So, sometimes, I scroll through Nifty and look for something to pique my interest. I do go by title - and whoever said you can't judge a book by its cover was a moron. A great many useful things are on the cover - the author, of whom you may be a fan; a cover photo which may entice you (Gabriel by Marten Weber, I'm looking at you); even the title which may hint at the interior and things of interest. I tend to bypass unimaginative titles like 'John and John' or 'John's Story' or 'The Sexual Awakening of John and his Menagerie of Obnoxiously and Unrealistically Well Endowed High School Class'. Although, that last title is somewhat imaginative, I guess. Descriptive at the least.

So I read a new story with an interesting title. I won't share it here, because it isn't relevant. I found some elements to be great - non-cliche situations, lots of dramatic conflict were really high on the list. However, there were issues with getting the ideas of the writer to the page in a way that allowed it to flow - in other words, it needed refining. I have written feedback to several authors, and I always try to be constructively critical with a mind to pointing them in the direction of improvement - if I can be so egotistical - and remind them at the beginning and end that all comments are meant in that fashion. Sometimes we create and imbue ourselves into the work, and so criticism feels like a personal attack rather than a discussion on honing our storytelling. Equally true is the tone of the feedback - arrogance and biting commentary aren't constructive.

So I began a correspondence, and even tried my hand at a little beta read/pseudo edit of the first posted chapter - at request, I wasn't so presumptuous - and I made the fellow feel pretty badly. Naturally, I felt terrible, and the one comment that may have torpedoed this person was asked in honesty - even if I now realize it could have been taken very differently.

One thing I try to use is to speak dialogue aloud, since if it sounds silly aloud it frequently reads silly on the page. Makes for strange looks in my house. But I find, without it, some authors allow their language to get too formal and, in the case of people who learn proper English rather than as a native speaker, things like contractions - that get used in common language - disappear. And so I asked, due to that very fact, if English was his native language.

Don't laugh, I meant well. I advised him to join the boards here, to check out the guides and take criticism as a good thing - that he'd done something right - and to work at it. I hope that happens, and I do hope other lurkers who want to write will take advantage of the bullpen to float ideas and half formed stories for input. Who knows, your half baked idea might send someone else's imagination off into new territory as well?

It's really hard for me, and so I suppose a lot of people, to take criticism. Heavens knows I've had a lifetime to learn how, but it still rankles. So Dave is right: it's very hard for someone, on getting an email about his story and expecting high praise, to read about all the deficiencies the story has.

What I don't know is how helpful, our doing this, is. We go about it with the noblest of intentions. We see something promising, see where it could be improved, and think to ourselves, 'Man, this guy will be delighted to hear how he can fix this story!' Except, unless we're really careful, he almost never will be delighted. Most of the time even if we are really careful.

One thing I've tried, with mixed success, is to write someone and tell them I've enjoyed what I've read of their story so far, and then point out the things I found better than average. Then I've ended it with a comment saying that there were a couple of things I thought he might improve upon, but that wasn't the purpose of my letter; my purpose was to tell him what a good job he was doing. If he would like to know where I thought some improvement could be considered, he could write back and ask for that.

Then, the ball's in his court; if he asks for more info he'll know what he'll be getting with a return post and won't be disappointed it's not all complimentary fluff.

Some people do ask. Some do not. But the ones who do generally are really interested in improvement and not of the mindset that their writing is on a par with Hemmingway's and shouldn't be tinkered with.

As I've never got a letter from anyone asking if I'd like their help, I'm not sure how I'd answer. But at least the offer would seem sincere, and I wouldn't be being slapped in the face with a lot of unexpected, unrequested criticisms.

I think it's hard for any of us to deal with those. We have to have some sort of ego to do what we do: put ourselves out their on display for barbs to be thrown at us. Some of our egos are more delicate than others.

And Dave? I too am put off by stories that I know, going in, will be sad. Many truly fine stories, well-written literature, have been of that sort. But we all have enough problems and pain in our lives. I don't like how I feel when despondent, and so don't knowingly subject myself to something I know will bring those feelings.

C

[Lugnutz]

I have a story I'm having problems with. Decided on a different direction but was still at a loss. Let a friend read what I had and he offered a few suggestions. Those seemed to work and a few more chats with him made it more solid.

Get more than one set of eyes to look at it. They'll spot things you might miss.

[Merkin]

I think it is hard for any writer to experience someone who springs unannounced into their email and introduces themselves by passing on comments designed to "fix" their work, no matter how carefully these suggestions might be framed in complimentary words about other aspects of the writing. I think a relationship must first exist between the writer and the person offering that kind of support, so that the writer can be aware that there are no hidden agendas and that the suggestions are, indeed, made fraternally and in good faith. Perhaps the best way to do this is to offer to be a Beta reader, thus achieving a somewhat formal relationship to the work and to the writer. It is difficult, I think, for anyone offering criticism to prove himself to be a good guy after the fact.

[JamesSavik]

The Sexual Awakening of John and his Menagerie of Obnoxiously and Unrealistically Well Endowed High School Class

I can't find this one. Does anyone have a link??

[Paul]

You could ask if they'd be receptive to constructive criticism first. If their reply - if any - seems in the least bit qualified, I'd skip it. No point in throwing yourself against a brick wall.

[Chris James]

Part of the issue here is that by the time we get to read another writer's work it has already been posted. At some point the author felt his/her work to be in shape enough to be tossed out to the public and perhaps thought it was good enough to merit their name in the headline.

The best part about working with this bunch of writers under the AD umbrella is that we all take such different approaches to telling the story. If this were not true we would be swamped with critics saying we copied one another. But in that diversity we all bring a different background to the table in the way we construct our work.

I am fortunate that I have several readers who will give me the feedback with enough conviction to say you goofed, buddy. Either they find a sentence constructed poorly, a misspelled word, or a repeated thought from an earlier chapter. These are all things we do in the rush to post and those kind of comments only slow me down and make me cautious about what I do. And why not, isn't like I have a deadline to meet.

But what I do have is a commitment to entertain the readers and do it well, we all feel that kind of pressure. I think even the average writer out there (since of course we are all above average...do I hear an amen?) seems to know enough not to make horrible blunders. That average guy must certainly be a reader and see examples of the good things a writer can produce.

I know I have encouraged others to make the attempt at creating a story, and to each of them I give the mantra that a writer must sit down and produce every day. A paragraph, a page, it doesn't matter, but a writer must keep that line of communication open in his/her mind to feed the muse and make it produce. I will go several days without typing a single word but that doesn't mean the story process has stopped. Read a book or watch a film, the necessity of relaxing often inspires some good ideas.

Correcting others work often feeds our own ego because the answer seems so absurdly simple. But after 70,000 words, a single sentence often seems obscure and yet that's the one the critics notice. We try to make what we create as flawless as possible, not out of necessity, because we certainly aren't making a dime on this proposition of posting online, but because we have the need and our self esteem to consider.

I think we all know the rules of print publishing. That's where a company assigned editor tells you to rewrite something they don't like and you do it to get paid. We all give away things that could go into print because we like to keep that content judgment in our own hands. In many cases this is the only place where we rule our own thoughts and ideas, and we choose to share them with the readers. I have some of the best readers in the world spread out across the planet and I value their feedback.

I want Dabeagle to know I am an author not just a writer, although a writer can be considered an author if the work is original. An author is a creative force, a person who professes ideals in story form to entertain the readers. Getting paid is optional and at the end of a long and painful journey many of us choose not to make.To be a writer all you have to do is type fortunes for the cookies in a Chinese restaurant. And aren't we better than that?

[Cole Parker]

There are some really fine and erudite comments here. Wonderful thread.

C

[Lugnutz]

I don't think I have any right critiquing a story. I still say that I'm not much of a writer. Nobody seems to read my crap anyway. If they do, it ends up going over their heads.

[Guest Dabeagle]

In many ways a critique is no more than an opinion, and we do share those frequently enough. We've seen at least two different, if personally applied, meanings for 'writer' and 'author' and even suggestions that pretty much say, unless someone asks for help, leave them be.

I admit I may have wrecked this - the road to hell and all that - and there is plenty of wisdom in not offering one's opinion unsolicited. That's probably where I went wrong, for both myself and the poor fellow who felt like he couldn't write.

No good deed goes unpunished, indeed.

[The Pecman]

So I began a correspondence, and even tried my hand at a little beta read/pseudo edit of the first posted chapter - at request, I wasn't so presumptuous - and I made the fellow feel pretty badly. Naturally, I felt terrible, and the one comment that may have torpedoed this person was asked in honesty - even if I now realize it could have been taken very differently.

That's unfortunate, DB, because I bet your comments were very instructive and probably could've improved the story quite a bit. I know I have the reputation for being a little critical around here (who, me?), but when I send a fellow writer an email, I try to say whatever I have to say as tactfully as possible. I also try to get to the point quickly and suggest a fix, and also stress that it's strictly my opinion.

One thing about the web: you put your story up there, it's going to invite criticism from all kinds of people. Maybe they're right, maybe they're idiots, maybe there's a glimmer of truth they have to say.

But I also think writers have to develop a bit of a thick skin to the point where you can take criticism and say, "hey, I see what you mean, but I did that in the story because of X, Y & Z." Or you could honestly say, "wow, I didn't see that -- maybe I can address this issue in a subsequent chapter." Ultimately, it's just one opinion -- which all of us have, just like orifices.

The Dude remembers this incident: about ten years ago, he and I (separately) encountered a guy who had written a story about some high school guys in an un-named town in California. I got about halfway through it, enjoyed what I saw, but encountered some weird story and dialogue issues that bothered me. The characters mentioned "Father Christmas" (which nobody says in America), some of the dialogue was a little clumsy, and I thought the details of the town were vague and didn't fit any Southern California city I knew. I wrote the author with what I thought was great praise, told him how much I had enjoyed the story, but noted that because he was in England -- which I guessed from his email address -- I felt that some of the American dialogue was a little weird, like the Father Christmas reference, and also that he should just identify the town or at least say it's 50 miles from LA or something, just to give us a general sense of location.

Man, he came back at me in a frenzy, frothing at the mouth, asking why would I ever dare to suggest he'd gotten this stuff wrong. He insisted that some Americans did say "Father Christmas," that the dialogue was spot-on perfect, and for me to essentially shove my head up my ass. I was taken aback, wrote him an apologetic email telling him that 97% of the story was terrific and these few little drawbacks didn't bother me very much. He again flew off the handle, and a year or two later, took the stories down off the net and disappeared. I can only assume that 1) he didn't take criticism well, and 2) I wasn't the only one to make comments like this.

[Cole Parker]

Man, if we were to remove a story from view every time we got a single criticism, there'd certainly be a lot less to read.

C

[The Pecman]

Exactly. At some point you gotta shrug and say, "eh, they're entitled to their opinion" and just move on. One opinion shouldn't be enough to cause a writer pain and suffering. What is rough is when somebody you respect points out some gigantic flaw in your work, and you slap your own forehead and say, "man! How could I not see that?" But as far as I'm concerned, the person who gives you comments like that is doing you a favor, especially if it's a flaw you just couldn't see.