Graeme

I thought the ending lifted the story out of the ordinary. It shows that the author didn't just fall into your normal cliched approach, though that's the way it looked early on. It would be great to know what happened next, but Ryan has correctly (in my view) ended it there to make a very strong point. Just my opinion, of course, Graeme :-)

Okay, I was suckered. The story wasn't what I expected. The characterisations were well done. I got a feel for most of the characters (some of them didn't come into play enough to develop much personality). There were a handful of typos that I noticed, but only a handful. I've got a couple of small negative comments to make, but I'm going to do those directly to Ryan. Definitely worth a look. Graeme :)

Longer than I care to admit (about 5 minutes).

Lightning rods are generally not mandatory in our neck of the world. I'm pretty sure that none of the houses I've lived in Australia have had lightning rods.

A very powerful short story and one that holds a large degree of truth. I won't say much more except "Well done, Jamie!" I don't want to detract from Jamie's story, but I was reminded of a pair of short stories by a friend, also on the subject of Fathers and Sons, which I found just as moving: http://www.deweywriter.com/chapters/sterli...sons/asf-01.htm http://www.deweywriter.com/chapters/sterli...sons/nsf-01.htm Graeme

Something I've experienced quite recently is also similar to what I recently read in a book on creative writing. In the book, the author, after publishing a medium length novel (~300 pages) was asked to produce a large novel (~600 pages) for his next story. He did so, and it was atrocious. What he'd done was take what he'd normally write for 300 pages and pad it out to 600 pages. It hadn't clicked that to make the story twice as long, he'd also have to have twice as much in the plot. In my case, I'm listening to advice I've received and I'm trying to reduce my dependency on adverbs and speech tags. New Story is one my 'practise' stories. What happened with the first version of that story is that I removed the adverbs and speech tags, but then failed to replace them with something else. The result was the feeling of banter and love, which I've previous shown with adverbs and speech tags, in the interaction between the two characters was lost. One person told me that they felt like they were room-mates, not a couple in a relationship. Another person told me that the ending came over as spiteful instead of gentle fun. Once it was pointed out to me (I hadn't noticed myself, as I knew how I wanted the words to be interpreted), I then went back and put in the extra parts required to show the relationship I wanted between the characters. What does this have to do with this thread? I'm glad you asked.... :D Internet authors and editors are still largely learning their crafts. This means that changes will occur, and things that worked before may stop working as the skills develop and knowledge increases. I know I still have a lot to learn, and that I need to unlearn some of the things I've been doing. In the process, the quality of what I write sometimes goes down. I need an outside eye to pick up on this, and to tell me when I'm not delivering what I intend. Graeme

Thanks Codey! Lucky you didn't see the earlier version of New Story then because I definitely didn't get that feeling of love right. However, I've got a great bunch of people who give me early feedback and they told me that I hadn't delivered the feelings that I wanted. Graeme :)

It's good to see you again, Rad. I hope things go well for you this year. All the best, Graeme :)

Congratulations! There are so many stories out there that don't get finished, so it's good to see another one completed. Cheers! Graeme :D

I haven't read the book, but I'd say that the answer to your question depends on what sort of disclaimer has been published in the book. If he says that some events and names have been altered to protect the privacy of the individuals concerned (or for other documented reasons) then I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if significant events turn out to be predominantly fiction, then that's decietful. My opinion only, of course. Graeme

I'm atrocious at poetry feedback but I'll give it a go. I liked the imagery of sunshine at night -- that bright person who seems so brilliant when those around them seem dark. The fact that the brightness can conceal a dark side is also painfully true. Overall, I thought it was very good. Graeme PS: That's my quota of poetry feedback for this century used up. Anything after this point is a bonus.

A short but nice tale from WBMS. One of those little events where you keep running it through your mind and think "I should've done...." or "I should've said...." I've had enough of those in my life to understand.

Best wishes, Codey!

Thanks everyone! If there is one lesson I learnt from NB, it's that ending a story is HARD WORK. As it's the first thing I've tried writing (despite completing another novel and numerous short stories in the meantime), I found that because I didn't have a strong idea of how it would end, that I was running the risk of having the story just drift away and die a quiet, boring death. I had to work very hard to come up with an ending that I felt capped the major points, without being unrealistic. I know some people would've liked the story to continue, but once David and Adam reconciled, I saw that as the end of that episode on both their lives. Continuing the story would just detract from that. Knowing that I'm probably about to offend some people, I feel J.R.R. Tolkein made that mistake with The Lord of The Rings. To me, that story finished when the ring was destroyed and the Dark Lord and his armies were vanquished. The following events in The Shire have always seemed like an unnecessary add-on. It rounded off a lot of detail, but I feel it detracted from the "main" story, which was the saga of The Ring. As my wife said to me at one point, you don't end a story on a sub-plot. I've never seen that written anywhere, but it rings true to me. Now as for Tony, yes there is scope for a sequel there. I'm not planning one at the moment, but I can see the potential. If I come up with a plot AND a realistic ending, I'll probably give it a go. I have also been working, slowly, on a spin-off which is Craig's story (from chapter 8). I have a start on that, but there hasn't been a lot of progress in that respect since September 2004. It'll happen at some stage, but at the moment it's on the permanent backburner -- still bubbling along, but not progressing very much. Thanks again, everyone! Graeme :) PS: I'd also appreciate it if people would thank Aaron and the rest of the guys at The Mail Crew. It may not be obvious, but a lot of the realism in the story comes from their input and Aaron's editing. They've taken my story, and helped to make the characters come across as true teens. Thanks, guys!

I believe this is absolutely true. I'm hard-pressed to think of a single great novel, by any author, that doesn't grab my attention fairly quickly. It's funny you say that. The first time I tried to read Tolkien's The Hobbit, I gave up after 30-40 pages because I didn't find it interesting (I would've been pre-teen or early teen). Many years later, when I tried again, I found it became interesting about one or two pages after I'd originally stopped. It was one of the things I was thinking of when I started this thread. I would agree that a novel that grabs the attention in the first five pages has the potential to be a lot more successful than one that doesn't, but that doesn't mean there are not many good books out there where the early pages start slow. Please note I've used the word "good", not "great" which is the word The Pecman used. The other issue is that "grab my attention" is a very subjective thing. Different things will grab the attention of different readers. I'm sure many people will disagree with me on my comment above about The Hobbit, but that was how I felt at that age. An example of a story (and no, I'm not writing one like this) where the blurb or synopsis allows a slower start would be a story that is described as the search by a man for his loved ones after a nuclear bomb explodes in Melbourne, Australia. I can see a story where the opening is very mundane, as the main protaganist goes through a normal life, introducing the other characters he interacts with. Once the bomb goes off, the reader can see the changes in the characters as law and order break down, and individuals show the nobility and/or villiany they are capable of. Without that initial "ordinary" phase where the characters are introduced, the contrast wouldn't be as strong. Many readers would keep reading through that initial section because of the climatic event they know is coming up. Overall, though, I will agree that a strong start to a story is definitely preferable. Graeme

I should explain that I wasn't using my story to get comments (though they are always welcome), but simply to use it as an example. I hope you don't mind, WBMS, but in the feedback thread, you stated you gave up on the story partway through the first chapter, and only came back to it because you trusted that Dude wouldn't put rubbish up on this site (or words to that effect). What I was trying to do was to indicate that there are stories where the first chapter may not "grab" the reader, and for many online stories, that's enough for the reader to move on (since there are so many to choose from). With a paperback, the blurb on the back helps get over that issue by giving the reader hints of what's to come in the story, and that helps engage the interest that might otherwise be lacking early on. Even when submitting a manuscript to an agent or publisher, the synopsis that's submitted with the manuscript again helps the reader move past a slow start. It's hard to do such a blurb for a serialised novel until several chapters are posted, but is this something we should be considering to help attract readers to the stories? It shouldn't be a crutch for poor writing, but I feel this is an area where online reading and printed books differ in how to get readers to read their stories. Graeme

In a recent thread there was talk about the necessity of grabbing a readers attention and interest very quickly. There was a comment that the same applied when submitting a manuscript to a publisher/literary agent, as they will receive a large number of stories from authors wanting to be published. I have been thinking about this and I believe I have to disagree that this is always needed. I have read enough print novels where the "action" or "interest" doesn't start for many pages. The difference is that a print novel will have a "blurb" on either in the inside cover for a hardback, or on the backcover for a novel, which gives me a taste or synopsis of the story that will help hold my attention for longer. Similarly, I believe when submitting manuscripts it is normal to include a synopsis with that submission which will help the reader decide if they want to persevere, even if the story is slow to start. Should this be something we should consider for online novels? Effectively a teaser that helps draw the reader in, and makes them want to read that little bit more before they give up. Using myself as an example, chapter one of New Brother is pretty bad. I made most of the mistakes that a new writer could make. Several people have said that they gave up part way through the first chapter as a consequence. At least two of those people later went back to try again, and once they got to chapter two, they've commented on being hooked. While I'd like to go back at some stage and try to fix chapter one to eliminate those problems, I don't think it'll be any time soon. I'll probably end up saving that for if I try to get it published, as I believe it'll result in a complete renumbering of all chapters as the descriptive detail in chapter one is spread through the other chapters and the effective start of the story (ie. end of chapter one and start of chapter two) is brought forward. What do people think? Graeme

I think there are a few things here, that may be getting confused. The first is establishing a relationship with an editor. Like any relationship, the first steps are usually tentative and prone to misunderstanding. I had this with my very first editor for New Brother - he pushed me hard, pointing out where I needed to add depth to the story with description of surroundings and actions. I pushed back because I couldn't do what he wanted, and it was only after chatting with him that I learnt that he really liked the story, but was pushing me to be better. He thought I didn't want him editing for me any more. I said I did, because I was learning quickly, but I wasn't capable of reaching the standards he was aiming me at... at least not at that time. So, early communications are important. A new author can get their ego bruised very easily if they get the impression that what they are writing is crap. It is very important to distinguish between real crap (as WBMS's editors do for him) and "good, but I think you can try to make it better". As soon as that first editor told me he really liked it, most of my anxiety disappeared, and I recognised what he was doing. We agreed he'd keep pushing, and I'd keep learning, but neither one of us was to get upset if I wasn't able to reach those high standards immediately. The other thing in this area is that good editors are rare and tend to be overworked. For that reason, they are reluctant to take on "can you have a look at me story for me" too often. New authors have to recognise this unfortunate fact and accept that when they DO take a look, it's often a quick look to get a feel for (a) the story and (b) how good the author is presenting it. By it's very nature, this means that they may miss the point if the story is non-traditional in nature, but all authors have to accept that the editors are busy people who aren't just sitting around waiting for someone to give them something to edit or comment on. Once a good working relationship has been established, then the gloves come off, because both sides are able to distinguish between personal and story attacks. I've had a couple of early readers tell me they didn't like something I wrote, and why, and almost always I make a change accordingly. Sometimes it's one or two lines to explain something, and other times it's a major re-write, but if those early readers have a problem with what I've written (for any reason) then I believe a lot of readers will have a problem -- and I therefore need to fix it. My opinion only, of course. Graeme

Okay, it's been up for a while, but I've finally found the time to read it. Another great start from TR, accurately passing on not only the traditional mystery tone, but also clearly setting the atmosphere of the era. If I have a complaint it's that the third chapter isn't up yet.... Graeme :)

Thanks! :D Chapter 23 could've been up a few days earlier, but I decided I needed a holiday so I went to Queensland for a week, leaving the computer behind. Aaron had the edits back to me during that week, but I couldn't review them until I got back. And before you make a comment, I have a firm policy of leaving my laptop and mobile phone behind when I'm on holidays. I don't want work to be able to contact me, since that's the entire point in getting away in the first place.... :evil: Chapter 24 is being prepared and should be ready sometime in January. Graeme

I'll second that. While I'd like to explicitly thank Aaron, Blue, Rain, Drake, Geoff, Paul, Oz, Talonrider and WBMS for editing for me at various times *, I also want to show my appreciation for the important behind-the-scenes work all you editors do for all the stories here and elsewhere. Graeme * Gee, I hadn't realised how many editors I've used until I tried listing them all. I hope I haven't missed any.

Thanks, Trab, If inspiration strikes, I'd like to do another letter from after the wedding. However, I don't know if that'll happen or not. Humour is not something I'm able to do readily -- it has to flow out naturally and that doesn't happen that often. Graeme

Thanks, everyone! My plan with this story is to try to get as much as possible written before I start posting it, so I can try to go back to fix any issues that arise. I'm finding it a lot more of a challenge with planning than a first-person-POV story, as I have to choose the most appropriate character to be the "centre" of each scene. Graeme

I think I need to clarify. I will be using third-person limited POV throughout the story. At the moment, each chapter is third-person from the perspective of one character. ie. you get to find out what is happening around them. A chapter has, so far, between two and four scenes. I've kept each scene in a chapter focused on what's happening around the same character. In a different chapter, I am currently focusing on a different character. What has been suggested to me is that this is causing the story to drag too much. I believe I should stick to one character per scene, but maybe my (self-imposed) restriction of focusing on one character per chapter is inappropriate. To use a published example of what I'm talking about, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series has a number of groups of characters. Each chapter is written following one particular group, and interprets things from that group's point of view, even if other groups are participating in the same chapter. That is the effect of what I was looking at doing, but maybe I need to pare it down to one perspective per scene, rather than one perspective per chapter.

Aaron did state it was in the context of a series of pool games. I interpreted this as games on a pool table, (aka billiard or snooker table), rather than games in a pool. Given it was only one sentence extracted from a larger story, I went for the logical option rather than the perverse one.