Richard Norway

The hurt that was caused went a lot further than you think. Funding for many worthwhile organizations was pulled to send to California to counter the monies that the church (notice I wouldn't capitalize that word) had been sending. Equality New Mexico lost it's Executive Director because the promised funds for her salary were diverted to California. We have a legislative session coming up in January that will be addressing a Domestic Partnership bill. We lost by one, YES ONE, vote last time, and now we're going up against them without the leadership that is so needed.

I didn't realize that in Downunder you are also experiencing the same religious intolerance that we're experiencing here in the US. Our founding was from extreme religious groups and their beliefs have always been a part of our heritage, good or bad. I guess, I had expected something different from your historical beginnings. Rick made a LOT of sense, and I too think that we, as a movement, have screwed up. The American public is slowly moving in our direction, but it takes time for those changes to take place. We tried to push gay marriage before the American public was ready, at least to vote on it with majority. It'll happen, but by pushing too early, we set ourselves back by allowing the opposition (right wing conservative religious fundamentalist, ignorant, unthinking, blindly following bastards...sorry for the disgust) to mobilize. Now, it'll take some more time, but I do feel that it will happen, even in the short time that I have left.

I have to agree with The Pec. I use Windows for only one reason and it's not because I have any kind of affinity to the advertising or the actual software. I use it to avoid compatibility problems with other software. Let's face it, Microsoft has the bulk of the market, and I for one don't wish to be pulling out my hair to make a point. Then again...when Vista came along, I had to start questioning that compatibility issue.

Cole, I think you're right on. But I'd like to temper that a bit. Real creativity is in the solution to a problem that you're faced with. For example, an architect is faced with many problems that he has to solve in the creation of his building, and his ability to be creative in his solutions is what we're after. This is another very trite example, but it works. Let's say that I ask you to design something. You would probably then ask me what I wanted you to design...an airplane, a bridge, some computer software, etc. By asking that question and getting an answer, you've now given yourself a restraint. The further you go down that road of defining what it is that you're going to design, the more restraints you've imposed upon yourself. I believe true creativity is expressed in the solutions that you dream up or create given the restraints imposed either by yourself, or others. The word 'creativity' is derived from the word 'create.' I think you're absolutely correct is defining the 'Rules Of Writing' as artificial and were designed only after the fact to explain what has already happened instead of laying a solid basis for doing something in the future. I believe that real creativity comes out of having those restraints in place. Just a newbe's humble opinion.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. The responses were as varied as the people here, and I really appreciate and understand your views. What a marvelous group you all make! I knew that by not giving too much of the story away at this point, your responses might head in different directions, and WOW, did they! I had pretty much decided on how I was going to present my story, and maybe my engineering background came into play here, because I became too detailed, focusing too much on mechanics. My profession is grounded in the laws of nature which are unbendable. But reading the varied opinions here brought me back to why I'm taking up writing in the first place. And you all said it in one way or another. It's to have an outlet for creativity. Des' second post brought me full circle back to why I asked the question in the first place...'What is it that I'm trying to do?' I thought about the significance of the two elements of 'immersion' and 'alienation' and how they related to what I wanted my readers to think and feel. And that brought me to ask myself, just whom am I writing for...the reader or myself? For me anyway, the answer is 'both.' To say that I'm now not concerned with the mechanics of this craft would be delusional, but I now have a better understanding of my thought process going into this story and what I want to accomplish. I didn't tell you how I plan on proceeding mechanically because that's not the significant point of what I got out of this little exchange. So instead of saying to you all 'Thanks for answering my question,' I need to say 'Thanks to everyone for enriching my writing experience.'

I had helped two local state representatives get reelected and one state senator get elected. It was mostly phone banking and I held a couple of fund raising receptions at my house. These three guys needed to get elected as they fully support the up coming civil union legislation coming up in January. My partner, David, and I were invited to their election results watch in a suite in a local hotel. Well, of course I went because the food and wine was free. As we ate and drank, the room erupted with applause when the West Coast states closed their poles and the networks predictions were announced. We left right after that because the local results were taking forever. It was a good night, but I might have preferred to have been at the Luxor. I was there just 2 weeks ago, and by the end of THAT night I was up $ 5.00. I had to leave before I went negative.

Jason, don't hide your face. Lift your head because what you said is worth listening to, proudly.

I too look at what Des said as quite insightful. But Obama has one flaw...he doesn't have the experience that may be needed to get things done. I laud and actually envy his ideals, but Jimmy Carter too was a good man and his naivety about how things worked with our government caused his presidency to be ineffectual. President Clinton tried to get our military to accept gays into our military service but was only able to get 'Don't ask, Don't tell.' I truly hope that that will change.Barack is also quite intelligent and has shown that he can pull the right people into his fold to advise him.I'm very hopeful for my future as an American, but more than that, I'm also hopeful for the rest of the world. It's not egotistical when I say the what we do has a great impact around the world. George Bush has destroyed what we as a people can stand for and has corrupted what we are seen as around the world.I really do see great change coming out of our government for once in the past 8 years.Des, peace in the world will not be caused by President Obama, Peace can only be approached, maybe closely, by each one of us throughout the world demanding it. But the influence that a major figure in world politics pushing his ideals in that direction will cause quantum leaps. We may never get there, but I'll never give up hope and knowing that whatever we do, small attempts will be heard.I really think that the world is heading toward inclusion. We have always done that throughout history with some bumps in the road. And yes, our big one took place early on in the 20th century, and we've paid for that.I truly believe that President Obama is at the top of a cliff, looking out over a vast canyon with the bottom covered with jagged boulders. One small slip and he'll end up in oblivion. But, I also believe that he has it within himself to make that jump, to be one with his destiny and to then be in control of his fate and soar with the eagles.

Being a new writer, I think I need some advise. I'm writing my second novel and am following two main characters, so I've decided on third person. But the antagonist's story starts out 3 years before the protagonist's. I'm interspersing the stories (it's a drama thing, okay?), so that means when I'm talking about the antagonist, it's a different time period from the protagonist's and their times are slowly brought together, so when they meet (for their confrontation), the time line is now together. I was thinking about using 3rd past for the antagonist's story as it's happening in the past, but using 3rd present for the protagonist's. My problem is that I think 3rd present sounds hokey. I guess, I just don't like the way it sounds. I'm considering on writing the whole thing in 3rd past, one, for consistency, and two, the reader might not have as much of a problem in transitioning back and forth, although, the idea of presenting the story from two different time periods might be reinforced by the shift in tense. Any thoughts?

It makes me feel so good to look out across my land of New Mexico and see a vast ocean. It is so brilliantly blue in makes my heart sing.

I'm at 4719, but I'm playing catch up. I didn't start until Sunday evening.Keep the faith Camy, Maddy, Kapitano and Ele. And please don't ask me to race.Aaaaaagggghhhhh! Another mipelled word! No...don't stop, keep going. But I didn't want to say that! No...keep going!

I think a similar measure is up in Florida also. Pec, I was raised in SoCal in a beach town just outside of LA and returned for a number of years before getting my head on straight and got out. But I still have an affinity for the state. I feel your anger too. From what I've heard, the race is too close to call and the separation in the polls is within the margin of error. I can't vote there, but you've got my well wishes.

I decided to vote early this year for the first time ever to avoid those lines. Statistics came out today on the early voting turnout here in New Mexico, and I was shocked. 59% of the state's population are registered voters. 72% of the registered voters (according to the pundits this morning) will vote this year. 42% of the registered voters have already voted in early voting. WOW! I'm so proud of my state.

Actually, I've heard that since I was about 2. I'm working on it, albeit slowly, but very methodically. One thing at a time. I'm not doing too bad actually. I've just about mastered getting out of bed in the morning.

What a kick in the pants! I started my second book two weeks ago (Ben Blue's editing my first, and we all know how swamped he is right now) and am up to 2,800 words...just getting started. This is a great way to get me going. Thanks Ele for letting me know that this exists.I've got my story pretty much figured out, but it's so full of holes it looks like my boat's going to sink. I think I'll take the first couple of days to pin down my story and then increase my daily word count as we get closer to Nov 30.

I had not heard of or seen this book before. I checked Amazon and read the first few pages that they previewed, and it told me of the diabolical life I'm setting myself up for. It talked of the pain and agony of writing, of the wretchedness of trying to tell the truth. I had to have it. Amazon is now winging my 'Birds' to me as I speak. Thank you for the recommendation.

The link didn't work for me either, but I found it going directly to Nifty. It's a good read, light, but it does make you think. Graeme is tackling the same concept in his serial novel, The Price Of Friendship.

Colin, I'm not good enough or accomplished enough to be giving you advice, but I've learned one thing from all the people here, some I agree with and some I just don't. Your writing is you! Period. There are many rules that are bantered back and forth about how to write, and I'm sure that those classes taught you all of them. But it, in my case I guess, comes down to passion. I'm still telling myself this all the time...to just write! You're good, and I want to see more of it. Forget the classes. Just keep writing. Your heart comes through then, and that's what makes story.

ps What in the hell are you doing up at 5 am anyway. It's Saturday! Oh! Then what am I doing up at 5 am reading what you wrote? Giggles.

Hey Pecman! That was just...excellent! I read over what you had said a couple of times, putting what I had written to your tests. I wish I could say that I had followed all of your suggestions, but each story came up short in one category. But, I'll keep trying. I hadn't read Nick Archers essay before, so thank you for giving us the link to it. I'm new here, so I don't feel qualified or experienced enough to give advise. That's why I need people like you. THANKS!

New writer here, but I didn't stop at Chapter 1. Well, I've got that done, but I also have 4 other chapters (who knows what the number will be) completed. When a part of the story becomes clear to me, I write it. These are the major parts of the story, and the transitions still need to be worked out. Who knows where the chapters written so far will turn up. But enough of that. I've got to go clean my garage.

Q.E.D.

This idea of story closure has been taken up before in other threads, and there has always been a myriad of opinions from the writers here. All that does is show that we have a myriad of writers...period. But, you all need to ask yourself one simple question. Who are you writing for? Many write to satisfy a need within themselves to show how erudite they are. Many write to satisfy a curiosity about a given topic. Many write to make a point, and many write to just tell a story. And many write to satisfy a need within the reader. I understand Pecman's views, as he's connected with Hollywood where closure is necessary. I also understand Cole's views where the denouement is not as important as the internals of the writing. You're both right...and you're both wrong...because storytelling is not about you, it's about the reader. Isn't that the entire reason that we're here? Some people will revel in the intricacies of HOW a story is written, and others will only be satisfied with that fizzy slippers feeling at the end. But...in the end, it's about the reader. What we're here for is to make sure that he/she is satisfied, frustrated, entertained or enlightened. It's NOT about us.

Wait a minute. Somethings wrong here. I counted only 12 candles! I think we have a lier in our midst, or someone who's very hopeful. Happy Birthday though. To make up for the lack of candles this year, you can put 165 candles on next years cake. Hey! No fair using that paddle!

You know, Rubi, I've never actually seen a table like that. I'm sure there must be one, and it wouldn't be too difficult to develop one. I'm going from memory from the few writing classes that I've taken and some of the books on writing that I've read. But as you can see from this thread, many people have as many different opinions about the strengths and weaknesses of any one POV. It will eventually come down to whatever you're comfortable with and which one in YOUR mind is appropriate to tell your story. But there are a few universally accepted thoughts about the strengths and weaknesses of each POV. Alright. Here's a challenge for all of us. Why don't we write a short description of what we feel about the various forms of POV, what each one is and used for, the strengths and short comings, etc., etc. and then post them. We could then leave this in one of the other forums for others to use as a reference. It would help those of us learning (like definitely me).