A scout is ...... indecisive

[Cole Parker]

Know what my first reaction was to seeing the picture? Man, are those boys white! Every one of them. In today's U.S., the reality is we're much more of a mixture than that. Out of four boys, there' d usually be at least one black, or latino, or arab, or something. The fact they're so monolithic is striking. Probalby not back then when the magazine was published, but now it certainly looks that way.

C

[Steven Adamson]

Just out of curiosity, were the US Scouts ever officially segregated? When did any official or unofficial segregationist policy end if it did exist? Who was the first black scout and scout master?

[Chris James]

Okay...I am fed up with the idiots. Do those who run scouting see this as positive support for their program? If so then scouting needs to fail and be buried along with the dinosaurs. Glad I am not a Christian otherwise I would be so embarassed.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/02/15/video-us-lawyers-claim-that-boy-scouts-cannot-remain-morally-straight-with-gay-scout-leaders/

[The Pecman]

Just out of curiosity, were the US Scouts ever officially segregated? When did any official or unofficial segregationist policy end if it did exist? Who was the first black scout and scout master?

All good questions. But given the Mormon influence, I can tell you there weren't a lot of black Mormons for a long time.

When I was going to school in the 1960s, it wasn't until about 1971 or so that Florida schools were integrated to the point where they bussed black students all the way across town to "force" a certain percentage of races in public schools. I think it took more than a decade for politicians to realize this was disruptive to families who had children spending over an hour on the bus every day. But I'm pretty sure the Scouts adhered to the civil rights act of 1964, which is when I think things started really loosening up (at least in the South). Before that... it wasn't a great time for a lot of minorities.

Okay...I am fed up with the idiots. Do those who run scouting see this as positive support for their program? If so then scouting needs to fail and be buried along with the dinosaurs. Glad I am not a Christian otherwise I would be so embarassed.

Note that the hostile statements are attributed to religious bigots and not to members of the Scouting organization, per se. I still say that all they have to do is just make it a rule that there is no sexual activity permitted, period, and have a zero strikes rule. There's a time and a place for almost anything, but not in an organization like the Scouts (or the Army), not when you're in uniform, and not when it's a Scouting activity. If it's legal and consensual, I have no problem with what goes on in somebody's bedroom, assuming reasonable judgement and precautions with teenagers of a suitable age. There's gotta be some reasonable judgement here.

I'm particularly incensed when the American Boy Scouts throw out a lesbian den mother who's responsible for a group of boys. Trust me, she's not interested in them, and it's wrong to think that any lesbian or gay man is any more or less moral than anybody else.

BTW, noted columnist Dan Savage has an interesting column this week, giving advice to a straight father who's concerned about his 14-year-old son, who may (or may not) be having sex with his best friend behind closed doors. Interesting thoughts on whether this situation translates to the boy being best friends with a girl, and whether different rules apply. Dan believes (as I do) is that the difference is, with a girl, the result could be unwanted pregnancy, which would be disastrous. But he also believes there's an age where certain activities are still inappropriate when the kid is living at home... and yet, you don't want to force the kid to start fooling around in a ditch or under a bridge. It's a tough judgement call all around, and I concede kids will be kids, and there's a point beyond which the parent can no longer protect them, and also that the parents have to warn the kids that there's a difference between being physically able to have sex and being emotionally prepared for it.

[colinian]

It's a very simple concept: kids under 18 should not have sex with anyone other than themselves. Oh, except me and Doug when we were 12, and my friends Eric and Ron when they were 15, and my protagonists Jason and Ron in my story Reorientation who are 14, and of course anyone under 18 on this forum, and.... Sure is a slippery slope, isn't it? In Reorientation the two protagonists and their parents and a counselor and a priest all discuss and debate this very topic. It's something central to teenage and preteen life today. And the kids involved don't think the difference between being physically able to have sex and being emotionally prepared for it is anything more than parental blah-blah-blah. Talk to kids in those age groups and you'll find that this is essentially true. What to do? Parents need to talk to their kids non-confrontationally and establish a dialogue and recognize that kids will often do what kids want to do, and kids need to be taught about safe sex and to understand the ramifications of having sex at their age.

Colin

[Steven Adamson]

Yeah, I was screening a book for my nephews last night. They are at the age for the bad touch talk and the book was supposed to clarify the idea.

Only problem is that the 'sleepover' incident in the book where the bad touch occurs isn't with any adult. It's one five year old trying to touch another. My first reaction was, damn this is stupid: It's just kids experimenting. It wasn't until the AFTERWORD of the book that the author explains the details of the real life incident that led to the book: The five year old 'molestor' tried trickery (All the cool kids do it), bribery (50 dollars!) and threats (I won't be your friend any more) and the victim did indeed feel pressured and uncomfortable to the point of locking himself in the bathroom to get away from it.

I can't dismiss that as 'experimentation'. (I have a stron suspicion the agressive 5 year old had been in bad touch with an adult, and was maybe even playing Judas Goat that night, softening up the other kids for the adult's approach.). So, yeah, even if it's a 12 year old and a 13 year old or two 16 year olds, issues of consent and knowledge of personal limits is essential.

In relation to the scouts, I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I assume there is seniority among the scouts, so one boy in a position of authority could force others to cater to him and that would suck. I don't have a solution, but I'm leaning towards more education on the issue for the scouts rather than more restructions, i.e. telling them that they are free to refuse rather than making refusal the default.

[Paul_and_Paco]

Oh yeah, that will do it... just tell us we cannot mess around, have sex, think about sex... breath. I think some people are going too far.

Sex in uniform, hmm... I am not into uniforms, but I know two people who are. I think the powers that be need to get their noses out of kid's pants and onto hiking, campfire building, tracking, or staying healthy.

BTW I and Paco knew we were gay when we were less than ten. My brothers are pretty sure too, so you might want to lower your age ranges a bit. I understand kids are hitting puberty at a much younger age now.

[The Pecman]

It's a very simple concept: kids under 18 should not have sex with anyone other than themselves. Oh, except me and Doug when we were 12, and my friends Eric and Ron when they were 15, and my protagonists Jason and Ron in my story Reorientation who are 14, and of course anyone under 18 on this forum, and.... Sure is a slippery slope, isn't it?

I'm not saying no sex at all -- I'm saying no sex with other people while you're living under your parents' roof. Otherwise, I think that's kind of going a little too far. Once they're 16 or over (the age of consent in most states), then I think the parents and kids could have some kind of conversation about boundaries. Hell, tell the kid that every X number of weeks, if their grades and behavior are good, they can have a weekend out of town at a resort or something. Otherwise, I think it gets into a grinchy area.

"Experimentation" I can live with. There's a big difference between that and a heavy-duty sexual relationship on an ongoing basis.

I think a brave writer could depict this in a story as a conversation between a parent and son, and present the issues, with the pros and cons on each side of the argument. I have no easy answers on what the boundaries would be for (say) a weekend sleepover. And in all of my own stories, I've clearly had cases where teenagers have had sex with other people in their family's house, but only on a very discreet, low-key basis. If I were a parent and had a 16-year-old, I'd be uncomfortable if they had sex with a member of the opposite sex, even with birth control. My main concern would be: are you really emotionally ready for this? Wouldn't it be better to wait? Do you really understand the risks?

But I could also make the argument that kids are gonna do what kids do, no matter what. And often, the harder parents fight them, the more inclined the kids will be to violate the rules. I see no easy answers here. (And I do have mental images of mom and dad lying awake, staring at the ceiling, while they hear a rhythmic thump-thump-thump of their son's bed's headboard bangs against the wall. Not real comfortable to hear your kids going at it, regardless of sexuality.)

[Cole Parker]

"Experimentation" I can live with. There's a big difference between that and heavy-duty sexual relationship on an ongoing basis.

That is so true. Parents cannot stop experimentation no matter how hard they try, unless they resort to chains or moving to a monestary in Tibet. And for what purpose? To stop a boy from learning what makes his body feel good, and/or some of the mechanics of sexual expression?

The fact is, boys of 13, 14 and 15, while physically ready to experiment, generally are not emotionally equipped to deal with all aspects of a 'heavy-duty sexual relationship'. The fact is, most such relationships bewteen people of that age end before both parties want them to, and someone gets hurt. The hurt can be devastating, bringing on feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt, even self-hate, that can last for years and interfere with future relationships. When parents try to protect their kids by preventing too-early sex, this is one of the things they worry about: their sons' psychological growth.

But unfortunately, the fact also is, if kids want to enter a heavy-duty sexual relationship, it's very hard to parents to prevent it, and it can occur in their own homes simply because, these day, the majority of families have both parents out of the house durirng the day. About the only thing that would be helpful in controlling such a relationship is honest and open and supportive communication between parents and sons. If they're on the same wavelength and love and respect each other, there's a much better chance that house rules that are laid down to protect both parents and sons will be followed.

C

[FreeThinker]

Sometimes, when I read posts here, I feel like I have to remind myself I'm not on a conservative Republican anti-sex site.

[Cole Parker]

If you're talking about being a Conservative Republican, you got the wrong guy. I was, when I was young, but haven't been for years, just like a lot of other people.

C

[FreeThinker]

I was being facetious, but still... it seems strange that on a gay site featuring stories about gay boys that there are so many conservative comments in various threads that almost seem anti-sex. Sometimes kids mess around. It happens. Big deal. Get over it.

Several years ago, when I lived in Austin, a nine and ten year-old were caught masturbating with each other at a school in Marble Falls, not far outside of Austin. The prosecutor charged the ten year-old with something ridiculous because he was the older of the two so, automatically in that troglodyte's mind, he was the aggressor and the abuser. Yes, that is an extreme case, and yes it was Texas, so we have to expect a little drooling Neanderthalism, but in general I am constantly amazed at some of the posts on this board that seem so anti-sexual. I don't mean to generate a controversy, but lighten up people. I don't advocate abuse, but two kids messing around shouldn't be a crime.

I'm not picking on specific posts or posters, just the general zeitgeist. I am frequently surprised by the conservative attitude toward sex sometimes expressed around here.

[FreeThinker]

And, by the way... I am disappointed no one posted "I knew General Zeitgeist. General Zeitgeist was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no General Zeitgeist." Or am I being too obscure? :-)

[The Pecman]

I'm not picking on specific posts or posters, just the general zeitgeist. I am frequently surprised by the conservative attitude toward sex sometimes expressed around here.

I'm far from being socially conservative. But if I were a parent, I would be very concerned if I had kids under 16 going at it all the time under my own roof.

I am an uncle, and I have an 11-year-old nephew and a 9-year-old niece. My brother and I are reasonably close. I brought up the issue of sex the other day, and he rolled his eyes and said, "jesus, I'm worried enough about their grades and behavior. The thought of them getting pregnant (or getting somebody else pregnant) even before they go to college scares the hell out of me."

Read Dan Savage's column and tell me what you think. And again, bear in mind that I have written four novels (two in progress) where teenagers do occasionally slip away and fool around in the hayloft (literally, in the most recent one). But I think it'd be a whole different scene for two kids to say, "good night, mom & dad -- we're about to have sex for the next couple of hours, so please don't disturb us." Like I say, I think there's a time and place for that. Dan has some fairly good answers, and he and his partner actually are parents and can speak from experience.

Look at it this way: if you had a son who was infertile (perhaps the effects of an illness), would you allow him and his girlfriend to have sex anytime they wanted to in their house, without the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy? I dunno. I'm not comfortable with this on a regular basis as a nightly sleepover, but I could see it every so often, especially if the parents left and said, "you're on your own for the weekend, but be safe and take it easy," or if the folks sent them off for a vacation, as I said. Once they're legal, the argument is harder to make, but I think some basic ground rules are reasonable. And if they're living away from home, all bets are off.

[colinian]

My own experience is different than what Cole describes. I met my current partner when we were in the 7th grade. We began experimenting when we were 12 and continued whenever we could. We didn't live together and we didn't have families who were not absent from the house very often, so having sex was only occasional and certainly much less than what we wanted. In fact, regular sex didn't happen until we went to college and moved into the dorm. By then I was 17 and Doug was 18, almost legal age to have sex.

Colin

[Merkin]

I've spent enough time among kids to know that when the little head leads, the big head is slow to follow. That may be human nature, but our responsibility as adults is to point out social consequences and to protect our youngsters from actions that endanger life chances and future freedom of choice.

[Cole Parker]

FT, I think you may be misreading what was written. I see nothing here to suggest anyone is saying boys shouldn't experiment. The only caution was about heavy-duty relationships. That's much different, and I think most parents would try to prevent that as it would distract their kids from all the other activities they should be engaged in. But the views of this forum seem to be that boys do experiment, will experiment, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's certainly my view. What's so conservative about that?

[Bruin Fisher]

One day, Colin, I want to meet you and Doug. When that day comes, the two of you are going to get the biggest hug...

[The Pecman]

My own experience is different than what Cole describes. I met my current partner when we were in the 7th grade. We began experimenting when we were 12 and continued whenever we could. We didn't live together and we didn't have families who were not absent from the house very often, so having sex was only occasional and certainly much less than what we wanted. In fact, regular sex didn't happen until we went to college and moved into the dorm. By then I was 17 and Doug was 18, almost legal age to have sex.

There you go. Assuming your parents knew you were both gay, what would've happened, at (say) 15 or 16, if you had told your folks, "hey, Doug is coming over the weekend to stay with me at the family's house, and we're going to have a romantic time." What would their reaction have been? (Let's assume we ignore the fact that it's illegal in California for an 18 year old to have sex with anybody younger at the moment.) Me personally, I think most parents would be at least a little freaked out.

[colinian]

There you go. Assuming your parents knew you were both gay, what would've happened, at (say) 15 or 16, if you had told your folks, "hey, Doug is coming over the weekend to stay with me at the family's house, and we're going to have a romantic time." What would their reaction have been? (Let's assume we ignore the fact that it's illegal in California for an 18 year old to have sex with anybody younger at the moment.) Me personally, I think most parents would be at least a little freaked out.

It turned out that our folks (mine and Doug's) knew about us because, as my mom told me on my 17th birthday (and a senior in high school), "You and Doug haven't been very circumspect, Colin." They had us figured out starting from when we were 14. Then she told me that she and my dad and Doug's folks were fine with the two of us being boyfriends. She said that they got tired of waiting for us to tell each set of parents that we were gay, so they decided that my 17th birthday was the time for them to out us. Doug and I never had a clue that they knew. They were obviously much more circumspect than we were. They also said that Doug and I could not have sex in either family's house exactly the same as it would be if one of us was a girl. Notice that no other restrictions were stated.

When I wrote "having sex was only occasional" doesn't mean it almost never happened. It happened as often as we could find one or the other house available, and when we went camping on Mount Diablo, and when we went XC skiing at Tahoe Donner with my cousin Ian and stayed at his girlfriend's parent's cabin in Truckee. I also wrote that having sex was "certainly much less than what we wanted" because we wanted it more often (like, daily) than we were getting it. When we moved into the dorm at UC Berkeley we had access to each other every night and we were finally getting it "like, daily."

Colin

[Guest Dabeagle]

I also think a person's perspective can change, right or wrong, if they have a child who is their responsibility (biological or not). It is very easy to state what you would or would not do in a given hypothetical situation, much like a politician, but when that situation develops you may find you feel differently. While I do agree that emotional development and the fear of pregnancy are two big driving forces, I can recall when a child I mentored first told me he'd lost his virginity at 15. For me it was tough to transition mentally to the idea of him as a sexual being. Also having a boy in the house reminds me of an old axiom: When you have a boy you worry about one dick, when you have a girl you worry about all of them.

Rarely will pure reason trump all emotion, so the dispassionate "hey they are going to, get over it" isn't practical. Neither will chastity belts, however.

[Cole Parker]

Man do I agree with that: the hypothetical is different from the actual. We can be very moral and upright and sanctimonious and legal in the hypothetical. We can be extremely proud of ourselves. But when the rubber hits the road, everything changes, and it's probably much due to passions and emotions and personalities and opportunities all coming together as they do in life.

As for Colin's personal history, I'd like to ask, did they give a reason for saying no sex in either house? That's the thing I'd like to know. I was theorizing, earlier, about why I think parents wouldn't want sons having sex in their teens, gay or straight, but here's a set of parents faced with that exact situation. Their answer to it was to say no sex. I'd like to know if they offered an explanation for why not.

C

[Chris James]

A commentary on the Boy Scouts reaping what they sow. You knew this was bound to happen:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/21/17044936-bill-targeting-boy-scouts-tax-exempt-status-draws-criticism?lite=

[The Pecman]

As I said before, go back to what Dan Savage advises, which I think makes for very interesting reading. You won't find anybody more liberal and more pro-gay that Dan, and even he says there have to be boundaries somewhere. I think as long as ground rules were established, it could be permitted in some circumstances. And let's face it: kids are gonna do what kids do. One could make a very good argument that a pre-arranged weekend where the parents go out of town and the two boyfriends can have some "alone time" would be reasonable.

But I also get that Colin and Doug's parents would not be cool with the idea of their children having sex under their roofs under any circumstances, at least at their age. I'd assume that once they were both 18 and had an ongoing committed relationship, that's a totally different situation (exactly as it would be if this were a straight couple). I think there's lots of shades of gray here, no necessarily right or wrong answers. But I concede that if the kid is living with their parents, and the kids are underage, then the parents make the rules.

[colinian]

As for Colin's personal history, I'd like to ask, did they give a reason for saying no sex in either house? That's the thing I'd like to know. I was theorizing, earlier, about why I think parents wouldn't want sons having sex in their teens, gay or straight, but here's a set of parents faced with that exact situation. Their answer to it was to say no sex. I'd like to know if they offered an explanation for why not.

My parents and Doug's parents became close friends, and they discussed our relationship long before we knew that they knew. They decided, together, that they didn't want to be at home and discover us having sex. So they told us to, as my dad so colorfully put it, "keep your pants zipped until you go to college." I've included a variation of that theme in my story Reorientation, where the two boys agree to wait until they're 18 but... urges tend to become uncontrollable.

Do we think that Doug and I missed anything when we were in high school? Not really. We got enough experience to figure out what we liked. For me it's sort of like eating fresh pineapple that's come direct from Hawaii. When I have it it's absolutely wonderful. But it's too expensive to have very often. So not having it for a while makes the next time just as wonderful and I never get tired of it.

Colin