The Baxter Boys by Mark Peters

[Bruin Fisher]

http://www.awesomedude.com/mark_peters/the-baxter-boys/the-baxter-boys.htm

A new short story by Mark Peters, well-written and powerful in its depiction of an Uncle who steps in and does what's needed when his nephew calls for help. Would that all young people had an uncle to turn to...

It's a good story - Go read!

[gwilym.pocock]

I liked it, until it turned into incest...

[The Pecman]

Hmmm, it's two consensual adults, though technically it is uncle and nephew.

[Cole Parker]

I'd guess that's incest. I'd have to look up the definition.

C

[Camy]

Biblically, no doubt, incest is majorly bad, though all those begettings are a little confusing. And obviously it's wrong at a close genetic level (although I believe first cousins can get married). But as two guys can't beget anyone....

[Cole Parker]

I agree, the major rationale against incest is genetics. But somehow, and maybe it's just all the training and tradition we've all had, it still seems a bit icky.

C

[Mihangel]

The problem seems to me more generational than genetic. Every instinct says father-son is a no-go area. Brother-brother seems less iffy, or icky. Uncle-nephew? Does it depend on the age difference? In this case it's not that great, but I'm still dubious.

[The Pecman]

I know of cases where there were Uncles who were within a couple of years of their Nephews or Nieces (particularly in large families), so crap like this is bound to happen. People are people.

There are laws on the books to stop Uncles and Nieces from getting married, but that's a different problem.

[colinian]

Cousin-cousin seems to be not uncommon. I've written about it in my story A Time When It All Went Wrong on Codey's World. Note: the story is not complete (chapter 21 was posted today).

Colin

[Cole Parker]

I think one of the feelings I have for the ickiness of any sexual situation is when there's a power difference. It's why I find adult/child sexual relationships so disgusting. The same can be said for an incestual one where an older family member gets involved with a younger one. That's why uncle and nephew together makes me squeamish. In the story in question, the ages weren't that far apart, but the power gap was still there.

I don't have the same feeling for cousins. If they're of like ages and one isn't physically superior to the other, I'd have a difficult time feeling there was anything intrinsically wrong with it.

[dude]

This whole discussion about incest -to my mind- is absurd. Obviously no one is an aggressor here, no forced sex in this story... and no inbred, defective child is likely to be born.

My opinion is that Grillym's initial comment was his attempt at being facetious. If he really was put off by the story, he should have just bought a copy of Family Circle and derived his reading material from there.

Any kind of forced sexual activity - in my opinion - is wrong. Only now are courts beginning to recognize that any kind of forced sexual activity is wrong even among married men and women.

I found nothing in this story to prevent me from posting it. The author is a talented writer and the story is well told. In fact, it showed many of the best aspects of good 'family ties.'

[Cynus]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this story. 'Uncle Mike' does everything he should do when confronted with the situation, and he leaves it entirely up to Danny. Only when Danny, as a consenting adult, makes it completely clear what he wants is there any deviation.

At no point did I find that Mike used his power over Danny in any way that was improper. That's because it wasn't about a difference in power it was a difference in maturity. These are certainly not synonymous. There is always a difference in maturity between any partners in any relationship. That is always the case it it will always be the case. In this story Mike proves how mature he actually is by reacting the way that he does, and I think that's beautiful.

This story was fantastic, and I'm sure I'll read it again. I've been working so much I haven't had much time to read, but this forum grabbed my attention on this one. I think that the subject of incest was handled very well and very craftily by Mark peters, and I don't think it detracts from the quality of the piece in any way, but rather enhances it.

[gwilym.pocock]

I don't see how it was needed. It didn't add anything to the story. It didn't progress it. They could have ended just before they had sex, and it would still be the same story.

Incest is the sexual activity between family members or close relatives. It doesn't matter if they can't produce children together. Would it be different if it was an aunt and nephew, or an uncle and niece? An argument that it would be different is that they could have children. But if they didn't do penetration, or they wore protection, or they are infertile then that argument is invalid. I find this almost as morally cringey as paedophilia.

[Mihangel]

We have two widely different strands of opinion here, two different moralities. The taboo against incest is hard-wired into us; or, it now appears, into most but not all of us. The genetic argument is irrelevant. What matters is the generational aspect or, as Cole puts it, the power difference. That is why I'm not worried over cousin-cousin relationships, and no more than dubious about brother-brother ones. But a story of a sexual relationship between father and son, however consensual, would be far beyond the pale, and would surely never be hosted on AD. At least I sincerely hope not. To me, uncle-nephew falls into a similar category, however small the age difference, however consensual.

[Cynus]

I once knew a boy whose aunt was younger than he was by a couple years. While it would still be incest, I sincerely doubt that the generational gap would have much effect in that relationship. I think the generational gap is exactly what the people make of it, and in this story there is very little of Danny bowing to Mike just because he's his uncle. There is no generational gap to abuse, because the characters don't think there is one, and that's the really important thing.

Now, as for the way it adds to the story... It adds to it in the same way that any radical or taboo subject adds to a story. This story sparked a discussion because of the topic it addresses, a discussion about the topic more than about a story. Isn't that what writers want when they include such a topic in their stories? Why else would we include things outside of the norm unless we wished people to think about those things and talk about them?

Spoilers below... should have said that in my last post.

Also, this story is hardly a blatant endorsement for incest. During the entire story Mike is wrestling with himself, knowing that it's wrong to have these thoughts about Danny. He is keeping himself contained behind the barrier of social norms, and only when Danny presses does he open himself up to it. There's no giant disclaimer saying, "I think incest between an uncle and nephew is okay" and you shouldn't treat the story that way because that's not what it's about. It is about making you think about the topics that it brings up.

There is nothing in this story that indicates whether the author thinks that incest is moral or immoral, save the fact that he wrote it. That means nothing. Authors write the stories that call to them, or they suffer because the stories are trying to break free and they refuse to let them.

I for one am glad that Mark listened to the story inside of him and presented us with something outside the norm, something that truly challenges the way we think about the world. Not because it's an endorsement about incest, because it isn't, but rather because it makes us think; it brought us here to have this discussion.

I don't think there is anything else I can say. I hope you take something good away from this discussion and this wonderful story.

[gwilym.pocock]

That is true, Cynus. You've changed my mind.* Stories are supposed to provoke thought.

* on the merits of this story, not on having sex with my uncle. :P

[Cynus]

* on the merits of this story, not on having sex with my uncle. :P

Well, I really don't think that's the point of the story, so I think we're good then.

[gwilym.pocock]

I felt like I need to confirm my 'you've changed my mind' statement, as it may have been ambiguous to some readers. I provably didn't need to.