Murder Most Foul

[Tanuki Racoon]

Do you think, given the right circumstances, you could kill someone?

I am not talking self-defence, nor protection of a loved one.

I am talking do you think you could plan to kill someone (given any set of circumstances you could contrive) and actually execute the plan.

Forget, for the exercise, whether or not you're good enough escape or if you will get caught.

There is a point to this, other than extreme curiosity. But I won't tell.

So, do you think you could murder someone in cold blood? Given circumstances, and access to the means within reason.

(And if you have done it, please post no confessions. Your IP stuff is logged by this system.)

[Cole Parker]

Man, I'm glad you added that last part. I was about to tell all.

Well, most of them.

C

[Tanuki Racoon]

And my answer is ABSOLUTELY I could. I've not done it, but I can tell you with unwavering certainty I could do it.

I don't particularly WANT to do it. But I have over the years realized what circumstances would make me plan and/or execute it (pun intended).

There is nobody I'm planning on killing, so don't freak. But I can easily envision the circumstances that would drive it and the various outcomes. Could I get away with it? Yeah. I think so. 'cept I'd gladly get caught if the circumstances came true -- which they likely won't.

[Trab]

I think for me the issue is "in cold blood". I think I could plan and even execute, but not in cold blood. I would need something to heat me up that far...that said, once heated, I wouldn't cool down for a long time.

I can tell you without any qualms, I actually tried to kill someone once, in complete fury at them, but fortunately failed. In fact, they never even realized it, since I failed so spectacularly. Nevertheless, it anchored in my mind so solidly that I will walk away from ANY situation that makes me angry. I must NEVER EVER lose control like that again. I WILLL NEVER lose it like that again. Period. It simply cannot be allowed.

[DesDownunder]

What a difficult question to answer, mainly because of the provisos.

Let's see... No self defence or protection of loved ones.

Well, that pretty much wipes out the majority of justifications because that includes, wars, civil riots and terrorist activity.

By wiping out these motives for murder, you leave only the irrational responses to kill for the sake of personal retribution, curiosity, vengeance, fear, sustenance (cannibalism), or reaction to an attack (real or imaginary) on my self image (ego, beliefs, and perhaps jealousy).

The last two, could be debated as falling under the protection proviso, above.

The stipulation that the act must be planned, wipes out any spontaneous reaction to commit murder, including the "it was them or me" motive.

So if my motive to kill, is to see if I can kill, I must claim that as irrational, if not insane. It is certainly not the act of sentient being who has developed some degree of compassion.

While it might be possible to find a scenario of the "lesser harm" is to kill someone, I cannot theorize that situation without some degree of psychosis.

So the end result has to be a "No Frikkin way" with a reserved judgement for actual future events.

"Do I feel the desire to assassinate?" is an easier question to answer, but happily is under restraint by my personal code of ethics.

I would add that the often quoted base evil of the human mind (monsters of the id) is a conjecture without verifiable support. Indeed the opposite seems true, that at rest the natural state of the human being is one of peaceful and wondrous reflection on living, not death.

That we have so many cultures based on dogmas that demand murder as a retribution for offending against those dogmas, is a fault of the dogma, not the core of goodness that is at the heart of every rational loving human being.

In summary see my message beneath my signature below.

[Bruin Fisher]

There is a point to this, other than extreme curiosity. But I won't tell.

You're being deliberately mysterious again!

What are we to do with you?!

[Camy]

No.

[TalonRider]

Here's someone who thought he could do it. This young man is the son of one of our maintenance men at work.

Pa. teen charged in foiled school attack plot

PHILADELPHIA ? A 15-year-old boy stole his father's guns to use in a suicidal attack against enemies at his suburban Philadelphia high school but was thwarted when a friend threw the weapons in a river, authorities said.

The alleged plot was uncovered after the father reported the three weapons missing, prompting a police investigation that led to an attempted murder charge filed Tuesday against his son.

The Pottstown High School freshman was being held in a secure facility, Montgomery County District Attorney Risa Vetri Ferman told The Associated Press. He does not yet have a lawyer, and no court dates are scheduled, she said.

Authorities say he took the a revolver, two semiautomatic pistols and ammunition from his father's basement gun locker in early November. He gave them to a friend, hoping the friend would take them to school when directed, authorities said.

Instead, the friend told his stepmother about the weapons, and she drove the boy to a river so he could get rid of them, investigators said. Police dive teams recovered the handguns.

Ferman described the suspect as a loner with a history of depression and mental-health problems. While previously a good student, he was repeating his freshman year, she said.

The teen initially planned to carry out the attack this year but delayed it until next year because school officials, aware of the stolen gun report, had stepped up security. The teen told investigators he was going to shoot people he did not like, then himself, authorities said.

The charge is attempted murder because the teen took "substantial steps" ? stealing the guns and giving them to the friend ? to carry out the crime, Ferman said.

"He had gotten so far along in that plan that he had the immediate capacity to commit the crime," she said.

The Pottstown School District, about 40 miles northwest of Philadelphia, has about 3,200 students.

The same district attorney's office last year accused a 14-year-old of amassing a cache of weapons and plotting an assault on a high school. The teen, who had been bullied and pulled out of public school in the seventh grade, admitted to three felonies ? criminal solicitation, risking a catastrophe and possession of an instrument of crime ? and is now in a juvenile center.

(This version CORRECTS the story to say that the teen is being held in a secure facility instead of a mental health center.)

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press.

[Cole Parker]

Des, that's an excellent analysis. I think you might have missed a couple of things to put on your list for reasons to kill, however.

How about for patriotic reasons? And perhaps to save a large group of people. What about to save a single person whom you greatly admire, like the Pope, or Gandhi or Bobby Kennedy?

What about killing a loved one who wants to die and is incapable of doing it themselves? That's always seemed noble to me, to end suffering.

I'm sure there are other reasons, too. They say reality is stranger than fiction, and we see it every day, things occurring that we'd never try to write about fictionally because they'd be so unbelievable. So I'm positive reasons could come about I can't conceive of, sitting here, where killing someone would be the right thing to do.

I certainly agree that frivolous killing, taking a human life out of curiosity or venal pursuits of any of the things that were listed, is unthinkable. I'd like to think we all feel that way. And that none of us are capable of that. But I also know I'd be capable of killing someone if the circumstances were right. And I don't think I'd feel much or any remorse thereafter.

C

[DesDownunder]

Please allow me to provide some insight into my reasoning, (or lack thereof.)

Wibby has stipulated certain exemptions for this poll.

Des, that's an excellent analysis. I think you might have missed a couple of things to put on your list for reasons to kill, however.

How about for patriotic reasons? And perhaps to save a large group of people. What about to save a single person whom you greatly admire, like the Pope, or Gandhi or Bobby Kennedy?

Wibby specifically exempted the "protection of loved ones" which I take to include persons I admire, and such as those you named.

Patriotism for me is included in the self defense exemption as patriotism can be regarded as the image I have of myself in my country. A truly patriotic act in my opinion is self sacrifice of one's principles for those of the nation, but that is fraught with being misconstrued as happens constantly in wars and terrorist activity. It is also an epic discussion in itself and I think falls beyond the scope of this poll owing to the extreme conditions that such acts of patriotism may entail.

What about killing a loved one who wants to die and is incapable of doing it themselves? That's always seemed noble to me, to end suffering.

I would claim that euthanasia of a loved one falls under the 'protection of a loved one' exemption.

I'm sure there are other reasons, too. They say reality is stranger than fiction, and we see it every day, things occurring that we'd never try to write about fictionally because they'd be so unbelievable. So I'm positive reasons could come about I can't conceive of, sitting here, where killing someone would be the right thing to do.

I think too, Cole is right when he says, there are other reasons too difficult to conceive. Fiction can only accept so much truth before it becomes unbelievable (or boring.)

I certainly agree that frivolous killing, taking a human life out of curiosity or venal pursuits of any of the things that were listed, is unthinkable. I'd like to think we all feel that way. And that none of us are capable of that. But I also know I'd be capable of killing someone if the circumstances were right. And I don't think I'd feel much or any remorse thereafter.

C

Philosophically, for me, I adhere to the John Donne meditation, which implies that the death of even the most horrid of human beings, is a loss.

"Any man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind." (excerpt from a meditation by John Donne. See my adaptation of his meditation in discussion at CW.)

Therefore, whilst I agree with Cole, that I am also capable of killing someone in necessary circumstances, I would definitely stand stricken with remorse at having ended a life. I would feel as if I had failed, even though I might be surrounded by noble or necessary justifications.

In fact hardly a day goes by that I do not see some loss of life that does indeed give me pause to reflect on our connectivity.

However, my point is, that maintaining the living is more important than trying to justify the taking of a life.

Wilful murder for the sake of it, is an abhorrent idea to me. The real use of this poll is the opportunity it provides for awareness and discussion of the issues away from (as Trab has suggested to me), the urgency of the moment of such circumstances, and as very distinct from premeditation to murder.

[Tanuki Racoon]

You're being deliberately mysterious again!

Wibby is an author and sometimes needs a reality check on future plans. Wibby is NOT planning a murder*.

* Commas are grounds for murder.

[Steven Keiths]

I'm capable, so I said yes, before I read all the rules. I'm capable, doesn't mean I will.

I thought it was a trick question.

[Trab]

* Commas are grounds for murder.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,In the middle of the killing fields,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[DesDownunder]

Outstanding Trab, outstanding!

[JamesSavik]

I respectfully decline to answer the question and assert my right against self incrimination under the fifth amendment.

Perhaps a better question is how do you get rid of those pesky bodies.

[EleCivil]

It's a "no frickin' way" for me. Dude, I feel guilty when I swat mosquitoes - to quote another line from the book in my signature, "I apologize to bugs before I kill their asses."

I have no problem killing spiders, however.

So, I guess the answer would really be "I could kill someone in cold blood, but only Peter Parker." (I believe I've got an old blog post about that, actually...yeah, right here. Wow, apparently I've been blogging here for more than two years.)

[Graeme]

I answered, "No, I don't think so."

I could see the possibility that I would want to kill someone as vengeance if something happened to one of my boys, but I don't think I would be able to go through with it. I don't see that vengeance is enough of a motivation to overcome my distaste for the idea of killing another human being.

To even consider it as a possibility, the person would have had to have killed both of my sons. One wouldn't be enough because I would be risking denying the surviving boy of his dad. The same applies if my boys were raped -- it would be more important to me that I was there for them, rather than potentially going to jail because I took revenge on the rapist. Even if someone killed both of my boys, I think I would be more likely to consider suicide than murder.

So my answer is "No, I don't think so", but I can see that it could be a possibility in exceptional circumstances. I just can't see those circumstances.

[DesDownunder]

I love your reasoning Graeme, it has a depth of love, honesty and rationality that I wish was more prevalent on the planet.

[Tanuki Racoon]

I love your reasoning Graeme, it has a depth of love, honesty and rationality ....

I agree, his answer is very very good. Double points for him.

To be clear this is the part, I was referring to. It shows a good thought process:

To even consider it as a possibility, the person would have had to have killed both of my sons. One wouldn't be enough because I would be risking denying the surviving boy of his dad. The same applies if my boys were raped -- it would be more important to me that I was there for them, rather than potentially going to jail because I took revenge on the rapist.