Indulge an author as he flies off the handle a little bit

[Josiah Jacobus-Parker]

OK, I don't know if the individuals who emailed me even browse the forums, but on the off chance that they do, I'm going to fling this out and just go on record for saying this.

Perhaps some other authors on this site and the many others, have received emails similar to this:

Hey, great story so far--when are they going to have sex?

Thanks

Steve Buttz

or:

How come your story doesn't deal with AIDS or HIV? Aren't you meant to be gay?

No-name Buttkiss

So here's why. Gratuitous, promiscuous sex, drug abuse, and HIV are not part of my life as a gay man. I'm not saying they don't exist, and I'm not saying that they aren't serious issues that seriously need to be dealt with. (Seriously). Because they are. But they're just not issues that I've had to deal with in my experiences of being a gay man. I don't want to write about them. I don't want any part in propagating those stereotypes about gay culture, that we all go home with a different man each night (if only one), do poppers, shoot up, fuck, and then get HIV and spread it as we repeat our nightly routine (thanks the 80's, you've given us so much).

I don't want to write a 'cheap fuck-read' (or should it be 'cheap-fuck read'?). If you're looking for a story dripping with sex, don't read my stories. You won't find it. Sure, there'll be the occasional sex scene. But there wont always be, and I don't feel bad about that. I don't feel there needs to be.

I haven't written about an HIV+ character in any of my stories because well, what could I draw from? I don't know anyone who's positive. I don't know what it's like to live with AIDS. Until I have even a glimmer of what that kind of life is like, I'm not going to be arrogant enough to try to write about it.

I feel there's so much more to gay life and gay culture than those three tropes. I'm one of those people who hates writing sentences like that even. What is 'gay life'? I have sex with men. Yeah, I guess that does make me a homosexual. But so what? I'm not sure how very different my life would be if I were straight. And yes, before you start, I am aware of how lucky I am of that fact, to enjoy that kind of an environment, and yes, I recognize that not everyone else does.

But I'm not going to write about that and pretend I can give it even an ounce of authenticity. I can't, and I'm not going to try.

Basically, this is what I'm trying to say; if you want a story filled with gay sex, people who do drugs, or people who suffer through HIV, don't read my stories. You won't find what you're looking for. But above all, don't email me asking where these elements are. I don't care if they were part of your experience of being gay. What the hell gives you the right to assume everyone's experience is that way? Why the hell can't there be more than one 'gay life' or 'gay experience'? Asking where's the sex already is neither constructive, nor criticism. Don't tell an author what should be in their story. It's THEIR story. It's their baby. Don't fuck with it.

Right. Now that that's clear, have a chipper day.

[Josiah Jacobus-Parker]

p.s. Sorry if this is in the wrong place. I didn't really know where else to put it.

[Tanuki Racoon]

p.s. Sorry if this is in the wrong place. I didn't really know where else to put it.

I'll gladly tell you where to put it :)

That felt good.

Okay, now for a serious comment. I agree. I get e-mails (at about a 1 in 4 ratio) that ask that same question: "Where's the sex?"

Because I answer all e-mail that isn't a flame, I have to tell them: "In another author's story." My current novel in progress is my first novel that has boner*-fide sex scenes in it but they are absolutely, positively, central to the story. I abhor writing sex scenes and I don't feel much better about reading most of them because they are generally irrelevant to the plot.

If you sex scene does not advance the plot and/or the emotional development of your pro(an)tagonist then it's gratuitous and isn't necessary. Now, if you're just writing jerk-off porn, that's fine, leave it in. But it belongs at Nifty, the repository for such stuff. This place is for literature, not porn.

And, I will second the notion expressed above that one should write what one knows because it's got to be good. Reading my stories, you will find it obvious I've been to the places I write about, done things similar to what my characters have done. All my characters are based on people (or composites thereof) of people I know. Could I write a good suck-and-fuck story? Probably. Will I? Never. It ain't my thang.

* laugh, or I will kill you

[Lugnutz]

I had one guy ask about sex, told him ain't gonna happen. I'm not gonna peek in on them to make the story. I might allude to it, but I don't get into it. Like Wibby, I write what I know or what I've done. Many things in my story actually happened, just gave it a lil twist to fit in the story. I won't write sex scenes because: 1, I'm no good at it. 2, Sex is a small part of a relationship, I'll write about what's in their head and heart. 3, no frame of reference.

That is all.

[DesDownunder]

WBMS wrote:

* laugh, or I will kill you

Will a giggle save me?

As for the emails that Josiah Jacobus-Parker received, the first from Steve Buttz seems ignorant of our literary -sex is not obligatory-base and the one from No-name Buttkiss borders on being a flame with its (to me) sarcastic assumption of what constitutes gay life-styles or gay story content.

What really strikes me however, is the similarity in the names: Steve Buttz and No-name ButtKiss.

Note the use of the "butt" in both names. Coincidence? Perhaps, or are we dealing with a vigilante serial flamer or a group with an agenda to smart-butt flame?

Both emails seem somewhat, inclined to bait (butt) the recipient. If I am wrong and they are simple honest inquiries then of course I apologise, but I would tend to ignore them anyway.

As for story content, our stories and characters can be drawn from our own individual immediate experience, or they can be contrived and fabricated from our imaginations. Both are valid and always, to some degree, are affected by our own personal life references even if they are not autobiographical.

I would advise however, not to use any experience of day-time soap operas on TV as a research base or for inspiration.

Josiah Jacobus-Parker, what you say about sex scenes is pretty much how I see most of us feel, but then again I am one of those who fast-forwards sex scenes in videos unless they are part of the plot.

The most innovative sex-scene I have seen lately is in the movie "Shoot-em-up" where the hero is shooting up the bad guys and his girl-friend at the same time, with different "guns" of course.

[JamesSavik]

when I get the where is the sex question, I send them to nifty.

I may have stories that have erotic parts but I don't have erotic stories.

I'm not interesting in writing it and if the idiot user wants to go blind reading a spank story, that's plenty of that crap at Nifty.

PS. GRRR Someone being rude and crude to Josiah Jacobus-Parker makes me want to smash something.

[Josiah Jacobus-Parker]

Josiah Jacobus-Parker, what you say about sex scenes is pretty much how I see most of us feel, but then again I am one of those who fast-forwards sex scenes in videos unless they are part of the plot.

The most innovative sex-scene I have seen lately is in the movie "Shoot-em-up" where the hero is shooting up the bad guys and his girl-friend at the same time, with different "guns" of course.

That movie left me totally disquieted and... unsure. There was a LOT of misogyny and sexism and some scenes/lines that made me feel pretty uncomfortable to be a man. But I'm also pretty sure that was the point. That scene you mention, with the killing and the screwing and the screwing while killing and the more killing and the orgasm--that was really... weird. Yeah, I'm not sure how to talk about all that. But he seems to be a pretty good shooter (Ironically, the title of another movie with a hot male lead and lots of guns. Unfortunately, though, not such a good film.).

I should mention also that Steve Buttz and No-name Buttkiss may have had their names altered in an effort to protect identity out of sheer politeness.

Their emails may also have been reworded to create a more general, and less targeted, effect of frustrating emails. Although it is my personal suspicion that Mr. Buttz and Buttkiss may in fact be kissing cousins. Or at least plain ass-kissers.

[DesDownunder]

when I get the where is the sex question, I send them to nifty.

If I received the Where is the sex question, I would be tempted to reply, "Mainly in your imagination." However as that assumes they are capable of imagination I think I would shake my head and send them a Nifty link, too.

[DesDownunder]

That movie left me totally disquieted and... unsure. There was a LOT of misogyny and sexism and some scenes/lines that made me feel pretty uncomfortable to be a man. But I'm also pretty sure that was the point. That scene you mention, with the killing and the screwing and the screwing while killing and the more killing and the orgasm--that was really... weird. Yeah, I'm not sure how to talk about all that. But he seems to be a pretty good shooter (Ironically, the title of another movie with a hot male lead and lots of guns. Unfortunately, though, not such a good film.).

I should mention also that Steve Buttz and No-name Buttkiss may have had their names altered in an effort to protect identity out of sheer politeness.

Their emails may also have been reworded to create a more general, and less targeted, effect of frustrating emails. Although it is my personal suspicion that Mr. Buttz and Buttkiss may in fact be kissing cousins. Or at least plain ass-kissers.

Having suffered at the minds (?) of certain bureaucratic women, I must admit to being something of a misogynist, at least when they are irrational. (I refrain from from adding "Isn't that all the time?" out of respect for those women I do admire.)

Never the less that movie is misogynous by nature as well as design. I think we are supposed to enjoy the action by way of the director's statement, that he wanted to make a movie without the quiet bits between the shootings. This in my misogynist view makes the movie a "boys film" or as some women refer to them here as a "dick flick."

As for the Butt cousins, you have at least explained why I thought they way in some way connected.

I am also delighted that you did change their names. Shows you are more considerate than they are.

[Cole Parker]

A dick flick is then the opposite of a chick flick?

This is why I spend so much time on this site:

So Des can educate me in the important stuff in life that I'd never know otherwise.

You must have been one of the in-the-know kids in school, a group I was never a part of.

Thanks. Now I at least know something not everyone else knows.

C

[Jason Rimbaud]

I agree with Cole. It's nice to have someone in the "know" to let us less fortunate peeps educate ourselves. Even if that person in the "know" is from someone claiming to live under the rest of us. I have my suspicions about that claim as well.

*looks under the table to see if i can spot the elusive dessie*

Jason R.

[The Pecman]

I don't want to write a 'cheap fuck-read' (or should it be 'cheap-fuck read'?). If you're looking for a story dripping with sex, don't read my stories. You won't find it. Sure, there'll be the occasional sex scene. But there wont always be, and I don't feel bad about that. I don't feel there needs to be.

I recognize that the decision of whether to have sex in a gay romantic novel is totally the decision of the author.

But at the same time, I think it's a tremendous mistake to pretend that sex doesn't exist as part of life, particularly for stories dealing with teenage or adult characters. To me, avoiding sex is like trying to ignore an 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of the room: you can pretend it's not there, but that doesn't make it go away.

I believe there are authors who deliberately avoid dealing with sex in their stories because they're uncomfortable with it -- not that you necessarily fall into that category, but they do exist. Me personally, I think a degree of sexual content is necessary for stories like this, but I think there's a way to do it that's subtle, emotional, and still works for the story.

And yet I agree: it's wrong to shoehorn a sex scene into a story unless it makes dramatic sense. For the coming-of-age stories that are prevalent in this genre (if it's a genre at all), I think there's a good compromise that will satisfy an author trying to write a meaningful story that has a decent plot, believable characters, and a rich setting -- but will also satisfy readers looking for emotion and physical intimicay.

There have been many discussions about this in previous messages. Do a search in the Writers section and you'll find quite a few, including the heated debate on "How much sex is too much" from a couple of years ago.

[Jason Rimbaud]

But at the same time, I think it's a tremendous mistake to pretend that sex doesn't exist as part of life, particularly for stories dealing with teenage or adult characters. To me, avoiding sex is like trying to ignore an 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of the room: you can pretend it's not there, but that doesn't make it go away.

Not describing sex in a story is completely different than ignoring sex all together. I've read stories where sex is implied, and maybe even described up and until the deed itself before leaving the final act up to the readers imagination. This doesn't mean the author was ignoring the gorilla. Quite the opposite really, because focusing on the mental and emotional part of sex is more rewarding than reading about insert rod "A" into hole "B", and repeat until you make a face.

The mistake that is being made here, in my humble opinion, is authors who believe that writing erotica is the same as writing romance stories. They are two different writing styles. Erotica focuses on the description of sex, and its main purpose is to help others release sexual energy. Where, romance styled writing tends to focus more on the journey of finding someone to have sex with. And then there are stories that blend the two together, I called them romance-ica. Every author defines his own place on the scale between erotica and romance. Both forms are valid, and each have their place in the world.

My tastes lean towards more romance styled writing. After all, I'm quite familiar with how sex works between two men. What I want to read about and experience, is how do two boys end up having sex, and then how do they make a relationship work.

So to sum up, maybe Josiah writes more romance styled writings where describing the act of sex isn't really important to the plot. So if it is omitted, there is a gorilla in the room, but maybe he doesn't need to describe what that gorilla looks like to the readers who have their own gorilla sitting next to them.

This is my thoughts anyway. Cheers.

Jason R.

[Madrigal]

Meh, this is a sensitive topic for me.

WHen I first started writing fiction online, I thought that I HAD to include a sex scene in every story I wrote, for that seemed a very prevalent theme in all the stories I'd read. Now I look back at what I wrote, and I feel ashamed. Not because I think sex scenes are 'distasteful', but because I wasn't writing it for me. It was a sort of peer pressure.

Let me reiterate. Do I find sex scenes distasteful? No. Do I feel like writing about HIV, promiscuity, and 'the scene'? yes, but definitely pg13 rated. I have found that having written that against my own will has left me bitter. If I'd received that email I wouldn't have been so nice about it. Kudos to you.

Maddy

[TalonRider]

As a reader, I don't go looking for the sex in a story. One story that I read on Nifty had lots of sex in it in the beginning. Once the co-authors worked past it, the story plot took off.

Another example is Jamies TSOI. Here we know Jamie and Nic did something without the a blow by blow play, sorry for the pun.

I'm also working an a story where the story contains sex but it hasn't been all that descriptive.

Jan

[Adam Donaldson Powell]

Write what you feel for -- based on your own experiences,

someone else's experiences or even your own fantasies.

If you write well and do the research needed for the story to be

experienced as "believable", you will find your audience.

Every writer should decide himself/herself what he/she

wants to write about .. and how. Just remember that

readers, publishers, reviewers, distributors etc. also

may have some opinions -- based on their needs, their

guidelines and their clientele.

That being said, I do believe that some of AD's readers

(which I assume includes persons of many ages and levels of sexual

experience) may also come from varied backgrounds and life/cultural

experiences. Many have certainly had their sexual debut at an early age,

some may have questions/curiosity regarding sex and sexual expression and

gay relationships, some may live on the streets, some may be

drug or alcohol abusers, some may live with "sugar daddies",

some may be abused or have suffered abuse, some may have

HIV/AIDS or herpes, some may have to turn tricks in order to

survive .. and some may just be interested in romance stories etc.

These persons have a legitimate claim to literature/art that expresses

their needs and their perspectives/experiences of "gayness".

Even not having sex can be an important issue for many of our readers

to read about.

Thankfully, it looks as if AD offers something for everyone. There is

no need to judge, or to feel compelled to write differently than you

wish to write .. or to get annoyed with a reader/readers who

are looking for a little more action/explicit writing than you are

able to or willing to provide. Send them elsewhere on the website

in a respectful and polite way.

[blue]

Stands up and cheers.

Thank you, Josiah.

The past few days, I have seen plenty from people who've said why they go to a site and what they like, or what questions and problems they've had. -- Granted, that's a non-explicit site, so the answers reflect that.

Over and over, I've seen personal things saying they knew what that was like, or they were glad to see relationships instead of just sex, or how someone's life was changed by reading something... even how it gave some people a place to belong and not feel like outcasts, or even how it saved one person's life.

Those are key questions for gay writers and gay fiction. There are multiple answers. (That's good, or there'd only be one story.)

When I first got on the web, I wasn't out. I looked around, unsure of safety or what I'd find.

When I found gay stories, that was something. Oh how exciting.

But what really surprised me was not stories with descriptions of sex.

When I first read a story that was about a loving, complete relationship, and not just about the sex, and where there were people I could recognize as everyday guys and girls who happened to be gay or not... OH WOW! :O I could be gay and find someone who'd love me, who I could love, who wanted the same things and lived an ordinary life? -- If that sounds naive or phobic, well, sorry. Maybe you should also say it sounds disappointed with any prior experiences. (That's a clue, y'all.)

OK, I've said that before, and you're probably tired of hearing it again. It's so important to me, and so typical of part of (most of?) our "gay community" that I think it bears repeating. Also, it shows why I think a story that is about more than just sex, or that doesn't need to be explicit about sex, is important.

The other thing is, if you are gay or questioning, or if you are straight and questioning about how to understand and support a friend or family member, then you need to see that. Yes, you may also need to see that gay sex can be healthy and fulfilling, and you need to see what things concern gay and straight people.

People need choices. Hey, a story about relationships; cool, I'll read that. Hey, a story about hot sex; hmm, I might want or even need to read that.

How about all those people who see there are lots of steamy stories with lots of sex or promiscuity or risky behavior or lack of deep relationships? What messages do those stories send them? "Is that what it means to be gay? Will I or my friend or loved one only have that to look forward to?" Or what about the kid who wonders to himself, "Does that mean that's what I'm supposed to be like too, to fit in and find someone to love?"

Those are questions people do ask. I might say there are better answers. I might say those questions are only one way, perhaps an incomplete way, of looking at the picture, or only part of the picture.

But they are questions which authors, editors, and publishers have to answer, and answer for, if we are going to serve the readers, or even explore our own ideas.

Great thread, and I'm not the only one who'd cheer. Lots of others would too... at least a few thousand a day.

[DesDownunder]

I wonder if we are too close to the flame of erotica, or so absorbed in the ideas of romance and perhaps too self conscious of our own writing that we are missing the fact that main stream literature has had erotica in its books and stories for centuries. Some of these books have at times been banned or forbidden. Others have been praised as classics of literature and culture.

By no means is there a clear distinction made between excellence in writing and the absence of erotic descriptions. There are many books and plays that have straight sex with lewd and often what I would call thinly veiled descriptions of arousing sex. However, these stories also have, an overriding substance and argument, philosophy or statement to make, to share (as entertainment) with the reader.

In opposition to these books of no small literary value are the so-called pornographic cheap thrills sleaze stories whose sole job is as Jason points out, is to "release sexual energy" which they do with varying degrees of success, not because of the writing but because of the pre-existing hormone level in the reader.

Let's face it if my hormones are sufficiently rabid, I could get excited by reading, "Her pants slid off her thighs as if they were two sizes too large for her." -Peyton Place.

It is true that there are examples of gifted writers in the main stream who sensationalise their writing with lurid sex scenes, and sometimes, just to make sure it attracts the book sales the writing quite often deserves.

Sometimes after the initial shock has settled, along with the dust from the bed-covers, it becomes obvious that the shock was the writing's only value.

As Oscar Wilde said, "Books do not have opinions, opinions are for people. Books are either well written or badly written, that is all."

So it is possible to want, or not to want, to read sexual descriptions in a story, no matter how well it is written or how relevant it is to the plot, but that should not blind us from objectively seeing that in either case the work is in fact either well or badly written.

There are many instances of gay romantic fiction stepping outside the genre of just being a well written gay romantic story. Famous books include "Maurice" by E. M. Forster. "Giovanni's Room" by James Baldwin.

Not to mention my personal favourites by Mary Renault, "The Mask of Apollo" and "The Last of the Wine."

The first prose fiction of any psychological depth is the Satyricon, almost certainly attributed to Petronius Arbiter (died AD 65/66). The surviving text, a mixture of prose and poetry, details the misadventures of the narrator, Encolpius, and his lover, a handsome sixteen year old boy named Giton. Throughout the novel, Encolpius has a hard time keeping his lover faithful to him as he is constantly being enticed away by others.

"Satyricon" shows that quality gay stories have been with us since antiquity, not to mention the Platonic dialogues ("The Symposium" in particular.)

So we should not think that none of us can only write trite stories that have no place in the larger world.

One day someone is going to write another great novel or even just a good one, which has same sex characters and maybe sex scenes, but they will be there because they have to be, or not be there because they are not needed.

In the meantime we do what we can and many of you are doing excellent work.

Friends, I like to think that one of the many things we are doing here at AwesomeDude and Codey's World is, at least preparing the ground for authors to grow and write good stories, maybe even great ones. Anyone might write that something special. For me, in "From the Heart," Codey did.